Piers Morgan vs HasanAbi On Palestine-Israel Conflict and War | The Full Interview - Bilingual Subtitles
Another battle of the hearts and minds traditionally played out through diplomacy and propaganda has been played out online.
My guest has.
almost half a billion views which was provocative commentary online, making him hugely influential.
As San Paika streams live under the name as an abbey,
his analysis of the Israel Hamas War has taken a highly critical stance towards Israel and Western media.
And he's been calling me out for my coverage.
Because he only cares about Israeli citizens.
He does not care about Palestinians as human beings.
That's why it's apples to oranges.
It's like one side is a human, the other side is a I never said that, obviously.
He says that he'd like nothing more than to come on to unsense it and call me a baboon in a suit to my face.
Well, here I am, a baboon, and he can join me now.
I'm joined by Hassan.
Thank you very much, David, coming on.
Thank you for having me, Pierce.
It's very early here in Los Angeles,
California, but I'm going to try to do my very best to not do my British accent while I'm here.
Well, I appreciate that.
And listen, I appreciate you coming along.
Explain to me why you consider me a stenographer for the Israeli government, given the in the.
I think more than any other host in the world,
I have given lengthy platforms to pro-Palestinian voices to articulate that side of the argument.
No, I do have to commend you.
You certainly have had more pro-Palestinian voices than the rest of the British media and certainly the rest of Western media in general.
Now, as far as saying that you're a stenographer, I that journalists are not supposed
to be stenographers and yet when it comes down to it in most circumstances.
In whatever conflict we may be in,
there are stenographers for Whichever party is aligning with the American State Department and the interests of the West in general and Israel happens to be the one
In this in this ongoing conflict
It's interesting that you call me a propagandist because I want to play you this was your reaction to when the hospital Got it.
I'm pianist.
For the record.
No, no, no, I'm not quitting it.
I'm pianist.
I'm a pianist.
just saying.
I'm to play you.
I'm saying I am.
I'm saying am.
I want to put in play it.
I'm going to play the clip.
This is your reaction to the bombing of the hospital the other night.
While I was in the process of getting ready for the stream,
Israel enacted one of the singular worst strikes they have done thus far, and an airstrike, an Israeli airstrike, hit the Al-Ahli hospital.
In Gaza City, where thousands of civilians were seeking medical treatment and shelter from the relentless bombing campaign.
No, interestingly, when you were saying that, I was coming.
And I took a position based probably on 30 years of being a journalist, running newspapers, working at CNN and others, of waiting.
I'm just saying,
I think we should just wait and see what has actually happened here, get clarification, see who's actually to blame before we start passing judgement.
You into a suit.
as many people did,
by the way,
including the New York Times,
BBC, mainstream and, of course, most of the Arab world, then followed that this was clearly indisputably an Israeli air strike on this hospital.
And all the evidence now suggests very strongly that it wasn't,
that in fact this was a rocket that misfired coming from a terrorist group inside Gaza.
So question for you is this.
Why would you why would you go that far?
Why would you be so certain in in what you said before you knew?
So first and foremost, before we get started on this conversation, let's understand something very important here.
There's no electricity in Gaza.
Internet is patchy in Gaza.
There's no food in Gaza.
There's no water in Gaza.
This is all by design.
This is because Gaza is under a brutal blockade, a brutal occupation by the Israeli government.
Okay?
So that plays a role in the fog of war and misinformation.
get spread having said that however you you made it seem as though there is a
certainty that this was one hundred percent not an Israeli
and instead I didn't I didn't actually just said I literally just said it's not
okay sorry I said the evidence the evidence is increasingly pointing to this
not being an Israeli And that is expert evidence for people who have no skin in the game at all.
Yes, well, I don't know what your expert you're talking about because I think Channel 4 did a pretty good job.
As a matter of fact, I would say Channel 4 did.
probably the best job so far in analyzing everything that the IDF has said,
but the reason why I believed,
and I still do believe that the likelihood is that this was an Israeli bombing campaign wasn't only because of the singular verifiable video,
the phone video from the balcony that had all of the markings of an air strike,
the fact that the Israeli Air Force was enacting a bombing campaign in the region at the time,
according to the Al Jazeera streaming footage that everyone is using but doesn't understand,
the fact that the digital media person for the IDF immediately came out and said that this was actually,
an airstrike that hit a Hamas target and that he was sad that there were casualties at the end of the day,
but this was a Hamas target and celebrated it.
And importantly, I guess, the fact that this hospital had been bombed by Israel, this hospital had been bombed by Israel on Saturday.
Twenty-two hospitals, as a matter of fact, have been bombed by Israel.
last saga in the occupation, and this hospital had been bombed directly by Israel where the cancer ward was destroyed.
Israel has been bombing all of these hospitals, Israel has been calling all of these hospitals to evacuate over and over and over again.
The medical professionals at the hospital had been called by the Israeli government.
and everyone on the ground assumes that this is an Israeli air strike.
They are the ones who experienced the So,
I mean,
but truth is,
if you watched the BBC,
if you watched the BBC account of all this last night by their verify unit,
which was specifically set up by the BBC,
to be completely dispatched,
And they reached a pretty clear conclusion,
based on circumstantial evidence,
I'll make that clear,
that this would not have been an Israeli airstrike,
including, for example, the size of the crater, which bears no relation to the size of craters normally left by his radio.
So, look, my point is neither of us know for sure.
But took to your airwaves immediately because actually you're, I wouldn't even say unconscious bias.
You're admitted propagandist bias on your part was that you wanted that to be an Israeli airstrike.
It your narrative.
And I would say that in itself, in its way, it's been a you know, you accuse me of being a stenographer.
I and be fair and get to the truth.
In your case, I don't think you try to do that.
I think you appeal to your audience, appeal to your base and you don't really care whether the facts are there or not.
this is entirely unfair because you just said circumstantial evidence favors that this was not an
israeli air strike i gave you all of the circumstantial evidence that it does favor that this is an
israeli air strike the reason why however circumstantial evidence is not enough and the one thing that
i will concede to because when more information did come out and know i do not mean when israel
said that they did not bomb this hospital and it was actually hamas and then they turn around and
never mind it's not hamas it's actually islamic jahad
and then they said we have more evidence coming out in a couple hours and then the evidence came
out and it turns out it sounded like it the phone conversations that they were able to intercept
supposedly sounded like by experts at the very least to be completely false and completely made up.
I listen, in all honesty, I don't think even as you're saying, I you're a smart guy.
Here's let me finish.
I you've looked at all of this and I think in your heart,
you know,
this was probably not an Israeli airstrike and I'm just curious why you would,
instead of admitting that as facts change, you're not what I'm saying, that is not what I'm saying at all.
I don't understand you would double it.
You're absolutely on your show.
You're asking to on your show.
You're me to be on your show.
Do want to talk?
Yes.
If asking me to be on your show and I want to be on the show,
thank you so much for having me on your show,
let me explain exactly what I said and let me explain to you why I think still to this very moment until there is a third party investigation that
is concluded.
by the U.N., the International Criminal Court, or specifically a forensic analyst that looks at the situation is allowed to be on the ground.
This is not just my perspective.
This is Betcellum as well, which is an Israeli organization that has also demanded a third-party investigation to occur.
I not going to,
I am not going to conclusively say that this was not Israel's Because I just gave you, because I, and not because I'm a propagandist.
As far as me being a propagandist goes, everyone is a propagandist.
I'm just honest about it.
You're a propagandist.
We our biases.
Seriously, you think I am a propagandist fool?
Who you think I'm a propagandist fool?
Who do I think your propagandists are?
Whichever your every every media person is doing propaganda.
This is who who for I've got to doing it for somebody You think it's a bad word.
I that's just the difference.
This is I think it's actually quite a serious charge I think it's a serious charge to level not on a
podcaster But as a journalist who's broadcasting around the world who has a reputation
I believe for being fair and impartial actually on these issues
It's quite a charge to just say I'm a stenographer of the Israeli government or I'm a propagandist.
I don't think there's any evidence I'm either of those things.
I'm curious who you think I'm going to conversation While we're having this back and forth,
3,840 Palestinians have been ruthlessly slaughtered in the last incursion in the Gaza,
I feel like this is an incredible selfish, self-centered conversation to have.
You asked me to be on here, you want to hear my perspective, I'm willing to give it to you.
I don't want to talk about like,
whether the,
I don't want to talk about Noam Chomsky-style manufacturing consent conversations about how the media is operating in the, in behest of capital.
You and the guy, listen, you the guy, listen to me.
You There are dead people.
A son.
I only asked you because you're the guy that called me a propagandist and called me a baboon in the suit
I was curious as to why you don't want to say no I know I'm doing the propaganda for we'll move on we'll move on
I agree with you.
I get there's a bigger there's a bigger picture this move on Let's a short break.
I want to come back.
I to talk to you about what happened on October the seventh get your reaction to that Look at this guy,
you know what shouldn't happen, killing 260 people out of music.
No, you're right, man.
That just happened on its own because like bad guys wanted to do bad things.
You're right.
Dude, if they Subjugated you to a open-air prison your whole life
You're gonna break out eventually when you realize that there is no other way to get out of it
I mean it sounds to me that has son That you are in some way saying they had it coming Wait No,
I wouldn't say that they had it coming.
I that Michael Brooks used to say,
analysis is not justification and while obviously civilian casualties and horrific barbaric acts that were committed on October 7 are completely Uh,
the, the important thing to make sure that it never happens again is to analyze what are the conditions as to, as to how it happened to begin with.
And I think, uh, Hoot Barak is going to be on, uh, in a little bit as well, or maybe he's on before me.
Uh, and, and I'm, I'm almost certain that while he has held the keys to the conversation
and held,
uh, the, the levers of the power in this conversation in many key and critical points, uh, I, I would go so far, say that he is among many others who also recognize that the,
maybe Netanyahu administration is responsible.
This is not just my assessment.
This is, uh, 85% of the, uh, Israeli assessment at the time.
Uh, this is years and years and years of with the Palestinian Authority.
Take, don't take my word for it.
Take the details.
I would agree.
would again a closed-door conversation with LeCoot members.
He said that if you want to thwart any kind of Palestinian nation state, you must do everything you can to only negotiate with Hamas.
We control how high the how high the fire goes.
He's given cash to Hamas by way of Qatar,
there is no bigger fan of Hamas than Bibi Netanyahu, which I hope one day you can maybe interview and then you'll ask him to.
No, I actually did interview him a few months ago and I did actually spell out to him that there
would have been a lot more Palestinian deaths this year so far up to the point of the interview than Israeli.
and what he intended to do about it.
He then,
he didn't believe in collective responsibility,
which is now this hot phrase in this whole crisis about whether you would hold all people in Gaza responsible for Hamas.
Interesting to see if, when they...
Let just use my point.
If do, they don't want to ground invasion.
It'd be to see if they I'm not a defender of what Bibi Netanyahu has been doing in Israel.
In my last year,
his on the credibility and integrity of the Supreme Court, I think, has been a disgrace, and I think it has fractured society in Israel.
I also think that it's called
caused so much social unrest and had such big protests that you could argue has taken the
eye off the ball of the people who should have been defending the border because they've been
trying to sort out what's been going on domestically internally inside Israel.
So I think it's a catastrophic failure of intelligence, of security, of all of those things.
I'll be amazed, frankly, if Netanyahu survives this.
So I'm certainly not here to defend him.
as a stenographer for his government.
My question for you I think is this.
I've had a lot of problems trying to get people on the pro-Palestinian side to separate two things that you can say
as I believe in you.
believe that the Palestinians have been maltreated for decades,
that the situation where they are effectively, I mean, I don't even call it an occupation because Israelis aren't in Gaza.
They pulled out in 2005, but they still control the ability of Gaza's...
Well, let me just try to call you a propaganda series.
I'm just saying the phraseology is confusing to me because the reality is,
I'm Israel exercises control over people in Gaza,
it them in and out, it allows them to turn on the tap of water and so on and so on.
I get all that, they don't actually live there because they can't live side by side with each other.
That's an open air prison.
Right, I don't disagree with the world's largest open air prison.
but I don't disagree with you.
And I've pointed this out for a long time as a journalist.
disagree about the appalling plight of Palestinian people.
But the issue comes that if you can't separate that ongoing dispute between Israel and Palestine from the absolutely appalling barbarism of October the seventh,
which was on a whole different scale to anything we've seen.
We're 1400 people, Holocaust survivors, babies in their cribs, young women, taken, tortured, abused, shocked, they're headed, it was reported and so on.
If we can't look at that collection.
with a general humanity and agreement that that is an absolute atrocity and there's something
wrong with this and I find that the tribalism on both sides is now so toxic and so
frenzied that you get people who literally can't we've had a bunch of actors.
Right, signing this statement saying they want a cease-firing Gaza and calling Israel
war criminals and so on, but they don't say a word about the Hamas attacks that precipitated this.
And I find that really hard, really hard to accept.
But do you agree with them?
If they had said,
for example,
that October 7 attacks were brutal and massacres occurred and then they said everything else,
that Israel is committing war crimes, would you agree with them?
Well, okay.
Here's what I would honestly say about that.
Is Israel not allowed to defend itself from the worst terror attack we've seen since 9-11?
Is it not allowed to defend itself after 1,400 in Israel are butchered in way?
And the question then, if you assume that they are able to defend themselves, as any...
Then the question becomes...
Then becomes...
I yes, line.
Then is that everyone...
I let me ask you this.
Then a question of how can they defend themselves?
If their mission now is to get rid of Hamas, a terror organisation that's committed one of the worst acts of...
If that is their stated aim, then what they are doing is consistent with that, isn't it?
No.
Here's why this is actually an abject failure, and is not just my perspective on the matter, I'm just a...
You know dumb idiot with a twitch stream who who is live reacting to the news and trying to make sense of everything as it's ongoing
I usually have a policy of not covering breaking news and and Sometimes that policy is violated,
but ultimately I am not held up by the same journalistic standards Even though I think I do a much better job than most other news outlets in in general
So let me just say this really quickly you said Israel has a right to defend itself
Absolutely zero people think that this is a ridiculous statement.
However defending itself is collective punishment.
Now, collective punishment in the form of depriving 2.2 million people of electricity, collective
punishment in the form of depriving them of water,
of food,
collective punishment in the form of 51 people dying in the West Bank,
where, you know, there is no Hamas in the West Bank, and yet 51 people in dying
people have died,
because in the West Bank settlers that are occupying Palestinian territory in violation of the international law,
settlers who are doing an act of colonial terrorism,
and is not my statement on it,
this is international law,
that are doing horrifying things by simply just existing there and maintaining the presence with an occupying force in the
but seldom an Israeli organization calls the permit regime where every waking moment of Palestinians lives in the West Bank are absolute hell,
where they have no legal recourse 51 Palestinians have died,
and was before the Ramallah,
the Ramallah protest that happened last night,
and the Israeli forces were opening up with live fire on protesters last night, so who knows what that death toll has become.
This is all.
This is all a product of Israel being an apartheid state.
This is a violent apartheid state.
There is no way to be a peaceful apartheid state.
It is a that is violence required for its maintenance.
And that violence is frustrating people.
That violence is radicalizing people.
As far as Israel,
as far as what Benjamin Netanyahu has done,
as far as the war government, what they have done, peers, going into Gaza and bombing Gaza and killing 3,400 people.
Palestinians so far in Gaza,
1,000 plus children out of all of those casualties, 22 hospitals being bombed, a bakery, the only remaining intact bakery being bombed yesterday.
Today, these are horrifying crimes that you would openly say are horrifying and
unjustifiable when Russia does it, but when Israel does it, Israel has a right to defend itself.
This is identical to the same talking points that I've heard from every Israeli administration official.
It's the same talking points that I've heard from American politicians championing the exact same talking points.
It's same thing that I've heard from everyone else on the media.
You might have been against the Iraq war, and you use that, but you're using that for evil, in my opinion, at this point.
If you are not sitting here and condemning...
of war crimes, those acts of violence, those acts of collective punishment?
Well, I would say to that that I think the death of any child in this conflict is horrific, absolutely horrific.
But the question comes down to me that after an act of terror as we saw on October the 7th,
Israel should be able to defend itself and should be able to go after the people that perpetrated that,
who live amongst civilians in Gaza deliberately.
And the question for me becomes down to, what is proportionate?
I don't know the answers then.
I'll be honest with you.
I don't know what that answer is.
I do know the answer to that.
I do know the answer to that.
Last night I had Dr.
Oferka Sif, an Israeli-Kinescent member who was expelled, suspended for 45 days for saying what I believe is the truth.
What is championing the exact same position of the Haaretz's editorial board.
There are a lot of thoughtful people.
Formative Holocaust scholars,
a lot of historians that all agree on the same point,
the reason why violence that even penetrates through the Israeli security blanket,
that people thought existed, that penetrated through that iron dome, the iron wall, if you want to call it that, is because.
because of years and years of oppression and years and years of violence, which is a to maintain an apartheid state.
And has to stop.
There's only two ways out of this, either you engage in full-blown ethnic cleansing.
And you listen to the likes of Smoktrich or if you listen to the likes of Ita Marbengivir.
favorable, unpopular, far-right figures.
If listen to Netanyahu and his liquid government,
they say that they are interested in going in that direction,
the ethnic cleansing direction,
the ethnic displacement direction,
or the only way out of this for a real solution is to move towards peace,
to genuinely have,
to genuinely end the blockade,
to the apartheid,
to end the occupation,
and create a pathway towards citizenship for all people with a right to return for all 14 million Palestinians,
five million of which live under Israeli occupation.
It's brutal.
And then the rest.
These are not unreasonable requests.
These are requests that understand the dignity and the humanity of one side and does not simply treat them as their colonial subjects.
And the only way to create criminal security and prosperity in the region.
If it was as simple as that, I'm sure that would have happened already.
I would say this.
I agree with a lot of what you've just said, not all of it, a lot of it.
I don't think you could ever achieve peace now with Hamas controlling Gaza.
I don't think you can achieve peace with Netanyahu in charge of Israel, actually, after it.
I think his own people will want him to be in charge of Israel down below, and they examine exactly how this happened.
But we will see.
But I've got to leave it there.
look, it's good to talk to you.
You you're an important influential voice to a lot of people.
And I think we have a lot of common ground, and there are some things that we disagree about.
But I suspect it's not as much as you think.
You know, I do think that the core problem here has got to get resolved in a way that's been completely ignored.
decades, and until it gets resolved, until the plight of the Palestinian people is resolved,
until all these young people in Palestine feel there's some sense of hope and they can get out of what effectively is,
as you say, a prison camp, then nothing is going to change.
I don't think it justifies anything to say.
I've got to finish it, but don't think it justifies in any way what happened on October the 7th.
But I do agree with you.
And until that core problem gets resolved, there will never be peace.
Sam, I appreciate you joining me.
Thank you very much.
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