Elon Musk to Jordan Peterson: “Life had no Meaning” - 이중 자막
So I wondered what's motivated you, because you push in so many directions simultaneously.
You have to be really highly motivated to do that, and so you figured out that the question, in a sense, was the answer.
Yeah, the question is another way that seeking greater enlightenment and a better understanding of the universe.
And what questions to ask about it is of being that we can continue to do as a civilization for
Likely forever exactly so depending on how powerful grok turns out to be yeah,
that's so then I thought okay I'll work on things that improve our setting of the universe and now now that they're said like at a base level
This is why I actually think we want to because population increase means that there are more people that we've expanded the scale.
More brains man.
Yeah we've expanded.
The scale of consciousness, to the degree there are different cultures, we've expanded the scope of consciousness.
How did you cotton on to the fact that antagonistic attitude towards birth that's embedded in our culture now,
was something that should be called out and that was pathological?
I should perhaps go back to what is the foundation of my philosophy, because that I think helps build up to explain my actions.
So when I was about 11 or 12 years old, I had somewhat of an existential crisis.
There just doesn't seem to be any meaning in the world like I had no meaning to life
And I actually read try to read all the religious texts at that age.
Yes I was a voracious reader as a kid.
I obviously read the Bible I read the Quran the Torah the various but on the Hindu side just trying to understand all these things
and Obviously, as a 12-year-old, you're not really going to understand these things super well, but I'm just surprised.
You understood it well enough to have an existential crisis when you were 11 or 12?
Yeah, I'm just trying to Does an answer that makes sense?
And I started getting into the philosophy books,
and I read quite a bit of Shopen Hour and Nietzsche, which is quite depressing to read it as a kid.
I'd say that.
Best depressing as an adult, and none of them really seem to have, to me, answers that resonated at least to me.
me.
But then I read Douglas Adams, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which is really a book on philosophy disguised as humor.
And what Douglas Adams tries to make there is that we don't actually know all the answers, obviously.
In fact, we don't even know what the right questions are.
That's where he has this,
if you read the book, Earth actually a computer to understand the answer to the question, what is the meaning of life?
And comes up with the answer Yeah.
And feel like, what does that mean?
It Oh,
you actually, you didn't understand The thing that's going to take a computer far more powerful than Earth is to understand what question to ask.
That's simply the wrong question.
So was that the key realization that the question was the would say that was a fundamental turning point, yeah.
Yeah, because that's it.
So that's very interesting because one of the things that you see constantly portrayed in ridded hero myths across the world is that the adventure is the thing and the
The search is the thing, rather than there being a final answer, as observed as 42 might be, right?
There's no, the conclusive answer is something like deep engagement in the process.
So I'll give you an example of that.
So in the Sermon on the Mount, a Sermon on the Mount is a very detailed set of instructions.
So there's three parts to it.
The first is aim at the highest level.
thing that you can possibly conceive of and keep modifying that so your aim gets better.
Okay, so that's number one.
Number two is make the presumption that other people have the same intrinsic value as you do.
We have to be careful about that one.
Okay, let's discuss that but it's a what would you say?
It's a recognition of the universalist value of everyone who's made in the image of God.
It's something like that.
The third thing is, once you do those two things, you concentrate on the moment.
See, and that seems to be, even technically, you can think about this neuropsychologically.
If you're looking for meaning, meaning is a form of incentive reward.
And reward is topometrically mediated.
And incentive reward occurs in relationship to advancement.
towards a goal, which is a form of entropy minimization, as it turns out, according to Karl Fristen, who something.
Entropy is the ultimate boss battle.
Yeah.
Negative emotion signifies the emergence of entropy and positive emotion on the dopaminergic side signals its reduction.
There's something that's more complex there,
because the higher the goal that you're trying to attain, the more you're more intrinsic value, each step towards it comprises.
And neuropsychologically accurate.
It's part of the wisdom of the Sermon on the Mount is that if you posit the highest imaginable goal,
then any step towards it is that captures your attention is also deeply meaningful.
And so that's an answer to what the meaning is of process rather than saying,
something like 42 and you said it seems to me that you were intimating that your
discovery through Adams that the question was the thing was key to the resolution of your existential crisis.
That's Okay, so that's part of the reason that you're motivated to say build grok three and look in look deep.
To understand.
Okay, so once how old were you when you figured that when you You out that the question...
13 or something.
13 or something.
that do to you?
What did that do to you?
I was a lot happier after that because now it's okay,
I'm just going to accept that we are ignorant of a many things and we wish to be less ignorant and anything we can
do that will improve our understanding of the universe, make us less ignorant and have a deeper understanding of the...
the universe and even more questions to ask about the answer to that is the universe which is
I think Adam's a central point is good and is this a religion I don't know maybe it is
but I think it's a good one I'd call the religion of curiosity yeah the the ancient god of the
Mesopotamians his name was Marduk and he was the best defense against ensuing chaos and state corruption.
Okay, so that's how he was conceptualized.
gay Marduk had eyes all the way around his head.
Okay, because he paid attention, right?
And he spoke magic words.
Okay.
Right.
And he was literally for the message, he was the agent that revitalized the tyrannical state and overcame evil.
And also the force that dispensed with chaos and built some magnificent and cosmic out of it yeah sounds like a force for good yeah
well the Mesopotamian emperor so his job was to embody that spirit on earth
and they used to take him out of the city on New Year's Eve strip him of his kingly clothing,
humiliate him,
they slapped him,
the priests,
and then they'd ask him to confess all the ways that he hadn't been a good Marduk, attentive and speaking properly in the previous year.
And that's how they renewed the cosmos every year in Missouri.
That's our new year celebration is a derivation of that out with the old and in with the new.
And the Egyptians, they worshiped the eye, right?
You've seen that famous eye.
You'll see eye.
I of Horace.
That's the antidote to the I of Sauron,
by the way,
because you get, if you don't use that vision, if each citizen doesn't use that vision, it's replaced by the totalitarian all-seeing eye.
That's a hell of a thing to know.
You talked about delving deeper into the structure of the universe, let's say, to answer fundamental questions like, and you are remarkably forward looking persons.
What hell do you think you're building with these AI systems?
What is this?
I think really what all the AI companies are aiming to build is digital super intelligence.
So, intelligence that's far smarter than any human, then ultimately an intelligence that is far smarter than all humans combined.
No.
And one can say, is this a wise thing to do, isn't this dangerous?
Unfortunately, whether we think bad or not, is it is being done.
But from my standpoint, from the XAI team's standpoint, we have the choice of being a spectator or a participant.
That's life, man.
Yeah, be a spectator or a participant and I think if we're a participant we've got a better chance hopefully of steering in the direction that is beneficial to humanity.
So do you, okay?
So why do you trust yourself on that front just out of that's an important question, right?
I trust myself entirely.
Good.
That's yes, fair enough.
Okay, and that's Yes, there's an ethical conundrum.
Because you said this is happening.
Now, the excuse that something is happening
is not a rationale for participating in it,
but then your next take is we have the chance to do this properly, let's say, as opposed to very, okay.
I think from moral standpoint,
we really just need to think that maybe we've got a chance of it being better, to some degree, than what.
others are doing and we will strive to avoid some of the pitfalls or directions
that the others are going in because the others from what I've seen do not strive for truth.
Why do they strive for?
They strive for,
they strive to give an answer but they are I think trained to be politically correct and the work my
virus is woven in throughout them.
Yeah I'm sure you've seen that.
Yeah definitely.
Definitely my students used to ask me when I,
because I've been teaching what I've been teaching for about 40 years and one of the questions they used to ask
me is how I knew that what I was teaching wasn't just another ideology because the
postmodern take is all it is a plethora of power
And so there's no rank ordering approaches to the truth in terms of their ethical suitability
But that's not the game that you're playing and obviously we're not to agree with with that plus view
What why not sort of moral optimism what's convinced you that's not a useful way of approaching things?
I think you can look at the given belief system and critique it as being likely to enhance or decrease enlightenment.
Will any given belief system improve our understanding of the universe?
Will learn more things?
Will achieve a deeper understanding of physics?
So that's grounded at least in part in a scientific framework, from the sounds that they just said.
I think there are facts.
Yes, right.
There are things that are just say, let's say, extremely likely to be true versus less likely to be true.
I if one thinks in terms of probabilities about any given sort of axiomatic statement, then that's why we think about it.
And some things are 99.99% to be true, that you can run experiments, you can confirm them, and others are perhaps available.
probability of truth.
One likely to be true or just using extremes here.
But any given statement has,
I think,
should be thought of as having,
unless this should be thought of as having a probability of being true or untrue,
a probability of being relevant to an argument or not relevant to an argument.
We're just talking about the basics of cogency here.
Yeah, I didn't study science Precisely, I wasn't as interested in the transformations of the material world
So I'm probably more people oriented than thing oriented temperamentally,
so I started to study evil Okay,
that was my Sure delving into the depths because I wanted to crack that I wanted to understand if not so much even withered existed because
I became of that very quickly,
but what exactly that had to do with me,
because when I was reading history, I read it as a perpetrator and not as a victim or a hero.
I try to read history to discern the facts of what humans did, you That also shaped the way that you act, though.
Probably, sure.
I've read a lot of history.
I try to understand the rise and fall of civilizations.
What do you think makes them fall?
One of the things is a decreasing birth rate, which seems to be a natural consequence of prosperity.
Yeah, isn't that strange, Jake, because you'd predict the opposite, wouldn't you?
As far as I know, every civilization that has experienced prosperity has had a declining population.
There may be a few exceptions, perhaps people can enlighten me.
I'll look at the comments on this interview to see perhaps what I can learn.
But it seems that, for what I've read, every or almost every civilization, when they become prosperous, their birth rate drops.
I that's a consequence of the emergence of something like...
a non-punished hedonistic ego-centrism?
I mean, there's so many examples of civilizations that become prosperous.
There is generally a trend towards hedonism.
Yeah, you can get away with it if you're wealthy, because the consequences of your punishment smack you on the head instantly.
Precisely, if you're a civilization under threat,
let's say there's when they were trying to not get annihilated by Carthage and they had a Hannibal running around rotting Italy.
They have time for hedonism.
Hedonism is not an option.
We're going to get destroyed by Hannibal.
Chips are down.
Yeah, when your own civilization is under stress, there's very little hedonism that takes you.
William said that the modern world needed a moral equivalent to war.
He investigated the religious realm very deeply and this I think this was in the varieties of religious experience
And that really had an effect on me because I think that you need something akin to an existential threat in order to set you straight
I think there's some truth to that.
Yeah, I think it's a let's say if it's as well child that where everything that kid gets everything he or she wants and
you have a Baruch assault and then writ large that is a civilization that is possible where people get everything they want.
I think it's the right way to think about it developmentally and neuropsychologically.
Can you have a rough childhood?
Yeah.
Yeah rough and tumble rough childhood.
Plenty of fights.
and a father who is a difficult creature to contend with.
Okay, what do you?
And are you grateful for it or are you unhappy about it?
I guess you never know the things that really made you who you are today.
At the end of the day, am I on net grateful for my life?
I am.
Perhaps even for the hard things.
Because those hard things, I learned from them.
What do you learn?
I read your...
biography no it's not no no definitely not I would tell it in a different way
than Isaacson because Isaacson what I think is an excellent biographer is not
nonetheless looking at things
Through his lens and wasn't there at the time of course of course one of the things that stood out for me to though
From that and I would like your comments about this was the rather the rough details of your childhood a lot of physical
Cultications and a lot of I don't know exactly how to go out the occupations
I mean I was almost beaten to death within an inch of my life at one point that counts.
Yeah, that definitely counts as a Few clothes here and there.
Yeah, so what did that okay?
Why were why are?
because that's a pathway that people take I think that there are one one can
take and often people do take the path of vengeance yeah that's for sure yeah
or that's what you need elism is yeah to say to feel that the world is
treated them unfairly and that they will visit upon the world that which the
world is visited upon them and justify it by recourse to the reality of their own suffering, which is often intense.
So story of Job, one of the things I concluded from the story of Job, because it's a precursor to the crucifixion story.
So Job makes two decisions.
The first decision is that no matter how terrible things become for him, he will not lose faith in himself.
And the second is,
No matter horrors are visited on him by Satan himself,
he not lose faith in what would you say, in the spirit that gave rise to the cosmic order.
No matter what.
While I'm not a particularly religious person, I do.
believe that the teachings of Jesus are good and wise and that there's this
tremendous wisdom in turn the other cheek and for a while there when I say I
thought that's really a weak thing yeah it can be if some someone and with
respect to bullies at school I think you shouldn't turn the other cheek pop
the punch on the nose and then also and then thereafter make peace with them but
they need to stop bullying you and a punch on the nose will stop that and then
thereafter make peace so sometimes that punch on the nose is
making peace with bullies yes it may change their career from being a bully to
perhaps they shouldn't be doing such things but yeah I think this anyway
so I think the notion of forgiveness is important it's I think it's
essential because if you don't forgive then as the figure who said it but an eye for an eye
makes everyone blind if you're going to seek vengeance, and you have this never-ending cycle of vengeance.
There are anthropological speculations that we were caught in a 350,000-year cycle of not
getting anywhere after modern human beings emerged precisely because of that, because we couldn't get out of accelerating tip for tap revenge cycles.
Yeah, so I'm actually a big believer in the of Christianity, I think they're very good.
So what sense then are you not religious?
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