CIA Spy: "Psychopaths & Manipulators TARGET This Type Of Woman!" (Spot A Con Man)| Andrew Bustamante

CIA Spy: "Psychopaths & Manipulators TARGET This Type Of Woman!" (Spot A Con Man)| Andrew Bustamante - 双语字幕

When you put the four of those things together,

you kind of create the perfect concoction for a con man to step in, and they leave you high and dry, broke, alone, and dejected.

You may not even realize I'm manipulating you until it feels like it's too late.

We women often ignore our gut-free feelings,

even when they're glaring at us,

because, well, we don't want to make a fuss, we don't want to embarrass ourselves and possibly make a false accusation.

And sometimes we may ignore the creepy guy giving us that creepy look in the corner.

So, Andrew, help!

How do we know if it actually is just our imaginations running away with us because we've watched too many episodes of True Detective or if they really are master manipulators and another Daddy John or

Tinder swindler in disguise?

The place to start with how what action to take is actually to understand how you

yourself You

And there's a lot of empirical evidence out there to show the difference between the core fundamental wiring of a female versus a male,

specifically in Western culture.

So going to reference something called the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, MBTI.

It's a personality test standard that's used all across government agencies.

It's used in universities.

It's used in judge, almost 20% of women.

One out of every five women fall into the ISFJ category.

Why is that important to what you're asking?

Because category specifically means that women make gut instinct decisions.

So they make decisions from their gut, but they from facts.

That's what the S means.

The S means that you use your five senses to collect information.

So you're using what you see, what you hear, what you smell, to collect the information around you.

But with all that factual information,

you make your decisions not based on the information,

but based off of your And then because you're also a J,

J stands for judger, that means that you're trying to fit your decisions into a rubric that's been defined for you by an outside force.

Well, what is that outside force in Western culture?

It's Western society.

So, what that means is, women see things, hear things, smell things that aren't right.

But then,

because they're trying to fit within a Western society,

they know that if they call attention to the thing that they distrust, they might be judged as paranoid, bitchy.

Who knows what?

Silly.

Stupid.

So, then, their gut instinct, their gut instinct.

Maybe I'm wrong, so I'll just wait.

And then they're introverted so they don't have a lot of external friends that they really trust.

When you put the four of those things together,

you kind of create the perfect concoction for a con man to step in and manipulate all four categories.

And because one in five women fall into these categories, you can see why there's such a high prevalence of con men.

All right, so help me understand, Andrew, how do we start to then break it?

And how do manipulators actually identify that you're that type of person to go off to in the first place?

So this is where it starts to get really interesting, right?

There is not a single thing wrong with being an ISFJ.

Nothing wrong.

There's no inherent weakness.

If anything,

there's an inherent strength in being ISFJ because when you take what the typical man is, the typical man is almost the exact opposite, right?

ENTP is the average.

Right, and I am an ENTP, my wife is an ISFJ.

I be surprised if you and Tom are very similar.

Do you mind breaking down what ENTP means?

ENTP means extrovert, intruder, thinker, perceiver, which compared to your ISFJ, they're polar opposites.

right?

Extraverts mean they like being around people.

Introverts mean they like being alone.

Like they generate energy.

When I get tired, I want to be around people.

When my wife gets tired, she wants to be alone.

That's how we recharge.

That's your E in your eye.

Intuiters collect information based off of their experience and what they think might be happening.

I'm an Intuiter.

So I might see something and be like, oh, I don't know if I really my wife is a censor.

When she sees something, she believes it.

That's what the numbers say.

That's what the color is.

It's not going to rain because there's no clouds in the sky.

I look at the sky and I'm like, it could rain soon.

I think it could, so we intuit information.

I am a thinker, my wife is a feeler.

I decisions based off of information that I intuit, you can see how problematic that is.

I'm making decisions based off of what I think might happen.

My wife makes decisions based on her gut instinct.

And of course, J and P, she tries to fit a norm that's been defined for her.

That's a J.

I am a P.

I make my own norm.

and to hell with everything else.

So you can see how we're different, but you can also see how when you have the right mix, they compliment each other almost perfectly.

Because she can be the source of real data, I can make a rational-based decision off of her real data.

She can always keep me true to the framework of society,

I can always challenge her to question the framework of society, and et cetera, et cetera.

So that's what happens when personalities complement each other.

What happens a lot of times is that same complementary relationship,

just like an ENTP can empower an ISFJ, or an ISFJ can empower an ENTP.

In too many instances, you end up having very successful women, ISFJs, because they know how to fit into a category.

They how to do a good job in a corporation.

They know how to do a good job in society.

They how to be accepted by their peers.

They know how to volunteer for the church or for the school.

They know how to be awesome people.

and the vast majority of ISFJ women, they are awesome people.

They're the people you and I look up to, right?

But they're vulnerable to this ENTP type that can come in and basically be all the things that they're doing.

Because like all human beings, we're attracted to the opposite.

We're to what we aren't.

So when you see somebody come in who's super comfortable in a social setting, that's an interesting problem.

When you see someone come in who isn't paralyzed by gut instincts or constantly like struggling to make a decision,

you're very interested and attracted to that person.

And when you come with a person who says like,

oh, I know the society needs me to do this, but to hell with that, I'm going to do my own thing.

That's an attractive person.

So what happens is con men who are wired with that ENTP type personality and have their mind intent on doing malicious things.

They can weave themselves in with these successful ways.

women and manipulate those successful women almost intrinsically, because they are just naturally doing the thing that that woman is attracted to seeing.

And unless she is aware of what her vulnerabilities are, she's blind to how she's even being duped.

It sounds like the narcissist with the empath, which is why the narcissist is usually the grandiose, the the extrovert.

If loves them, the woman's more of the subdued.

And that's where,

at least from the understanding all their research I've ever done,

is that when the narcissist finds that empath, that's that perfect fit because they know exactly their characteristics in order to manipulate them.

Correct.

And when we talk about narcissism, you have to understand that narcissism is usually constrained by ages.

So 25 to 35 is when human beings are in their peak narcissist years.

Until start getting to the far extreme where you actually have a personality disorder, like narcissist.

But for most of us, 25 to 35 is our peak narcissist years.

It makes sense.

It's also when we're trying to be the most successful, we're trying to be competitive, so we lean into narcissistic tendencies.

But, when you have someone who is on the far end of that extreme, and they are paired with a true empath, somebody who cares and cares about the narcissist, you're essentially feeding the narcissist exactly

what they're looking for.

They're looking for attention, they're looking for validation, they're for someone to give them authority and credibility in some aspect of life.

And that's exactly what an empathic person wants to do.

They want to show you that they care,

that they're validated, that they hear you, that they hear And it's a very unhealthy and dangerous pot of soup.

Mm-hmm.

All So now that you've broken that down,

which that was so clear,

it's really clicked into my brain now of like how those two can be beautiful together,

but obviously how it can also be detrimental to us, I'd love to take the real world example of Dirty John.

This is something that so much.

but it's just one of millions and millions of stories that it just went to the extreme.

So love to really break down the 30 John story,

what happened,

how we as women got manipulated by him and how it transpired into such a dangerous situation that unfortunately is only too common, I think.

Yeah, so the Dirty John story, and there's lots of details I'm sure we can talk about,

but what catches me immediately is the age, the ages in question, right?

Because John's target was a divorced woman over the age of 50.

So, here you have a woman who has been successful in professional life, but is questioning her personal life.

And women go through matter.

multiple times throughout their life, men are very blessed to not have nearly as much dynamism in our life, right?

But, I mean, women, when they discover their menstrual cycle, and then when their body changes

again in their 20s,

when they start to have children,

when they change jobs or leave their job to raise a family, I the changes for women are just constantly coming.

Men don't have any experience there.

But there's also this point when women go,

they crest over 40,

if they have children,

their are grown,

if they,

some, I think we were talking earlier about divorce rates being highest in that age bracket, losing your job as highest in that age bracket.

So there's all sorts of these changes that happen when you're in that 45 to 55 realm.

And it's a space that because of all those changes, it's ripe for women to start second-guessing themselves and doubting themselves.

Even though their instincts are what made them successful in the first place, they will still doubt themselves.

Why?

Because, especially if we stick to generalizing from empirical research, ISFJ, that J means they are judging themselves.

I'm 50.

I should have this much money in the savings account.

I'm 50.

I have this kind of marriage.

I'm 50.

I have this kind of relationship with my parents or my family or my sisters or my brothers or my kids, right?

I should be taking care of my parents as they age.

There's all this judgment going on internally inside of a woman's head about what she...

what she...

versus what's actually happening.

And what the outside expects of you.

Which is very, very different than how society treats men, and it's very different than how men think of themselves at the same age.

So in the Dirty John example,

that's the woman who is then targeted by

who finds her on a dating app or a dating website and why is he on that website because here's the

secret truth for con men.

Con men are just like salesmen.

If anybody knows how sales work, you have to call a lot of people to get one sale.

You to make a lot of pitches to get one buyer.

You have to kiss a lot of frogs to find one prince right con men are out there doing what when they're intentionally maliciously conning

They have to constantly be farming for leads Where do you farm for leads?

on an

on a website in a place where there's an automated function that helps you find multiple targets

and then weed through those targets to find the most likely candidate for victory.

And that's exactly what happened in this Dirty John case.

The target put herself out there in a vulnerable,

honest place because she as an introverted feeler believes That people are going to be honest,

but dishonest people like to surround themselves by honest people because it gives them an unfair advantage.

So, once he finds her, then there's a second level to Dirty John

out, because Dirty John had a history of criminal activity, previous fraudulent activity, he was a criminal.

When you start seeing people who are who are compulsive,

you have to start asking the question about whether they fit into the realm of anti-social personality disorder, psychopathic.

How do you know that there are the criminals there?

Cause you can even lie about that.

I I bet you, that wasn't something he put on his dating profile.

No, you're exactly right.

And this is, so it's a great question.

One of the things that Dirty John did specifically to his target is he started trying to insulate her from her own friends.

This is a major telltale sign.

When you as a female are dating somebody who is a dangerous person,

if they try to insulate you or pull your way,

isolate you from your existing circle of friends,

your existing family, your existing network, usually it's because they're trying to hide something that they don't worry about.

But they worry about your best friend discovering.

They worry about your mom finding out, right?

So they try to pull you away from the people that you're closest to.

Dirty John isolated his target from her children and her friends.

Her children and her friends actually hired a private investigator.

to look into him, and that's how all of his background became known.

And before you move on,

is it the reason why he wasn't worried about her finding out is because he knew he could manipulate her and control her even if she did,

but he doesn't have that type of power over her family?

Correct, correct.

There's a formula in CIA operations.

There's a formula that we use whenever we convert an asset.

But is a very specific rubric, a process to manipulate and gain power over an individual.

Any type of individual, any personality type, you just have to understand the levers that make them work, right?

So when one of those processes is called no-like trust,

K-L-T, what that process means is that first somebody has to if they don't know you exist, then you're not real.

Then they have to learn to like you.

Over time, as you learn to like somebody, there's something there's an effect called the slippery slope effect.

The more you learn to like somebody, you eventually just fall into trusting that person.

We always say you have to earn my trust.

That's not really true.

If you like me for long enough, that's so true, oh my god You literally just hit me like with a sledgehammer just now.

You will just trust me.

You will fall into And that's what happens for many,

many feelers, ISFJ, feelers trust their gut, so if they like you for long enough, then they just feel like they can trust you.

So think about all the women out there, maybe this has even been you.

This is me.

You don't see my glasses so wide.

You're like, yes, that's me.

Think all the women out there who have had a partner cheat, have had a partner steal, have had a partner with you.

Uh, and then even after they catch their partner, they still stay with the partner or come back to the partner, give them a second chance, give them a third chance, give them a fifth chance.

My my wife is a former covert CIA intelligence officer.

She is a badass.

she went to CIA running away from a seven-year abusive relationship.

Wow, really?

Because she had fallen off the cliff of like, into trust.

And then she was in this position where she was like, why do I keep coming back to the same boyfriend?

And then it took an invitation from the National clandestine service for her to finally leave the guy, right?

Like, it's it's not It's not about weakness.

It is very much about personality and inherent processes and how we think.

So until a feeler,

or in this case until a female who is exposed to this kind of treatment,

until she starts to realize this is how I am wired.

I will always have this vulnerability.

Vulnerability is not weakness.

It's just an opportunity for someone else to take advantage of.

So until you understand that you fall into trust,

then you never have the time to stop and take a step back and say, I really like this person.

I need to be careful.

When you start adding other warning indicators, I really like this person, and he's trying to isolate me from my friends.

I really like this person, but he's telling me that we need to keep certain secrets about our relationship.

If you don't ever see the first,

if you don't ever realize that you're liking the person and starting to trust them just by virtue of liking them,

then you never even see the other warning signs.

And they're all there with the Dirty John case,

which is easy for us in hindsight to look back and say, how did she miss them?

But in reality, she wasn't even looking for them.

She was coming from a place in her life where she didn't feel like she was worthy where she felt like she was a failure,

where she felt like no matter how much we looked at her and said,

you're awesome, she looked at herself in the mirror and said, I've done it all wrong.

So how are you going to ever expect someone like that with their face down in the weeds?

How are they ever going to pull their head up enough to see what's happening around them?

Conmen can identify that in a personal person, and that's how they pick their perfect target, just like a salesman picks their perfect lead.

I interrupted you, sorry, but you said, so know them, like them, and then what was the last one?

Trust.

Trust them, okay.

Trust, no like trust.

It's hard for the very reason we talked about,

once you like somebody long enough,

you will And then there's a rumor out there that once you violate someone's trust, they never trust you again.

It's not really true.

In reality, once you trust somebody, you always give them the benefit of the doubt.

So when your husband is cheating or your boyfriend is cheating, why do you forgive?

because there's a part of you that's still giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Oh, maybe it was a bad day

or maybe they were with their friends or they got high or they got drunk or it won't happen again.

That trust is so difficult to pull yourself out of, right?

So when we talk about no like trust, no like trust is the centerpiece of a larger system called development.

Development is the D in the term sad rat.

S-A-D-R-A-T is sad rat.

It stands for spot assess develop, recruit handle terminate.

It's a human intelligence process to basically take someone from being a patriot.

for their country and turning them into a traitor that supports you.

All right, you've got to break that down, that's fascinating.

Literally a process to change a person's loyalty.

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So, very briefly, spotting means that you find a group of people who are susceptible to what

you're trying to do,

which is convert them and convert their loyalty to you, to make them loyal to you or loyal to your country or your organization.

So is about finding the people that you want to convert.

In the Dirty John case, he will...

to spot.

Then you move to assessment.

Assessment means you are probing to test certain aspects of the person.

In most the most common aspects you want to test their reliability, their and their control ability.

So what that means is, are they suitable for what you want them to do, right?

So Dirty John's case, he's looking for someone suitable to be conned and then you want to test for reliability.

Can you reliably expect them to do what you ask them to do, right?

Give a phone number, respond to your message, whatever else it might be.

He can use the app to see how long does it take her to respond to my message?

message?

How often does she respond?

Does give me more information or do I give her more information?

That's all testing for reliability.

And controllability.

Controllability is when you tell them what to do and it may not be in their best interest.

So if you can tell them, well, why don't you take Sunday off or take Friday off and meet me for lunch?

If they do that, But you're testing their controllability, right?

So now we've gotten from spot and assess, now we're going into development because you know the person is suitable, is reliable, and is controllable.

So you do in development is you reinforce the idea that what you have is superior to what they want.

To get them to believe that they've been wrong the whole time and that they need to trust you you've heard the term gas lighting

This is very similar to gas lighting because inside development what you're doing is you're preparing for the final

step Which is the R stands for recruit SAD R

Recruit is when you finally tell the person your loyalty should be to me and not to this other thing that you're loyal to.

So in the dirty John case, he basically made it clear to her, your loyalty is to me, not your friends, not your family.

I care the most about you.

You should care the most about me.

Your opinion matters the most to me.

My opinion should matter the I'm sure that we've seen this before in other relationships, right?

Once you have that recruitment in place, then the A, the A is, it's a government acronym.

So the A actually stands for handle.

Handle with the letter H, but government acronym.

So use the letter A.

In the handling phase, all you're doing is you're reinforcing and constantly practicing.

practicing the behaviors that you have trained into them during the developmental phase, right?

So this is where you start seeing people who want to keep secrets, right?

This is where you see physical and emotional abuse take place.

And then the abuser basically says, you can't tell anybody.

This is our business.

I'm going to get better, just keep it between us, let me work on this, be help me with this, whatever it might be.

It's a process of reinforcing already trained behaviors that suit the manipulator and don't suit the target themselves until you get to the place where

Terminate is basically where the handler or the abuser says, I what I need, I'm out.

And they leave you high and dry, broke, alone, and dejected.

That's the whole sad rat process.

That developmental process that I was telling you about in the middle,

where you're training those key behaviors, that is where no like trust comes in.

No like trust is the tool that you use to get them to adopt your behaviors and how do you get them to adopt those behaviors because they like you so much that they eventually trust you.

And they trust you, they'll do whatever you tell them to do.

that was such a beautiful way of actually breaking that down.

And I have such incredible compassion for anyone,

you know, obviously, because my show is Women's Impact, but for women who get trapped in that cycle.

And it is very deliberate.

And I like that you said, it's not weakness, right?

It's like showing vulnerability to somebody in a situation where you want to be vulnerable, because you want to build a relationship is beautiful.

And it pains me that people beat themselves up and they're not trust themselves anymore, because they've been there.

They're doing the right thing.

The who is vulnerable is the person in the right.

It's the abuser who's taking advantage of it, right?

Like, it's just like we said at the beginning of our conversation.

When you have two opposites that approach in a healthy manner,

you have the combination for a super couple,

but when you have one person with malicious intent, approaching one person with vulnerable, honest intent, now you have a recipe for quite the opposite.

And so, I mean, the story gets even worse if people don't actually know what happens.

So the daughter is the one who's very suspicious, right, who said they went and hired a private detective.

All this starts coming out.

I think he's got a criminal record and things like that.

And then one.

So the mum eventually tells Dirty John, hey you know I don't want to be with you anymore.

So one day the daughter,

Tara Noel,

I'll just read this to you,

had got an out of her car in the parking garage of her apartment building opened the door

for her dog to hop out on August 20th 2016 when suddenly she found herself in a fight for her life.

He grabs me by the waist and he looks me in the eyes and remember me.

She said he began stabbing her with a knife,

and this is a quote of hers, but I am not aware that he's stabbing me because the knife is in a del taco bag.

And she just thinks that he's punching her.

So, I think she's punching me and he keeps on trying to grab me, put his hand over my mouth,

I bite as hard as I can and I just keep trying to get away from him.

Tara ends up fighting back and ends up stabbing him in the eye and forehead of a total of 13

times and she ends up killing him.

So, I kind of like the way that story is.

I do, guys.

Just like, I don't want to wish death on anyone, but no.

That's But, yeah.

But when someone is attacking you, and I mean, that's when animal instinct takes over, and it's killer be killed.

Yeah.

There's so much that had to go wrong for her to get to the place where she was assaulted by her own car.

We think of our automobiles, we think of them as an extension of our home.

as a safe place for us,

and we oftentimes forget that they're not as safe as we think they are, because they can be put into unsafe situations and unsafe circumstances.

But with that turn in the story,

it's important for us to highlight that not only was Dirty John a con man,

but on a spectrum of of con-man behavior, he was far to the extreme of what we call ASPD or anti-social personality disorder.

That's the same realm as psychopaths and so One of the telltale signs of a psychopath over a sociopath is their tendency to violence.

Think about what it takes.

It's so rare that people think about what it takes to actually assault another human being.

How difficult that must be.

To hold a knife, to hold a gun, to take someone's life, to cause them mortal danger.

He premeditated it, carrying a knife, hiding the knife in a bag.

This not accidental.

He knew where she was gonna be and when she was gonna be there,

most likely because she was walking her dog in the same place that she always wanted.

right?

When you think about what effort a has to put into doing a violent crime like that,

you start to realize how different they are from the average person.

Even just punching somebody is a hard thing to conceptualize doing unless your temper is up or you're defending yourself.

He was not attacked.

He attacked an innocent, unsuspecting person.

That all goes to speak to how how far in extreme he was on the spectrum of psychopathic or ASPD, anti-social personality disorder.

He was not a normal person.

Right.

But how do you even identify that?

Is there any signs, like if you were to be talking to someone and you're like, they have a weird look, right?

Going to intuition, like there's something strange about them.

They're giving me this look that's What are the things that we can start to identify that maybe showcase,

obviously, that is extreme when I totally understand, but those extremes do exist.

So what science would you even warn women, let's say, if you see this, run.

So I'm going to answer that question, but I'm going to say this first.

We said that that is the extreme.

I agree.

It is absolutely the extreme.

However, if you consider the extreme, let's talk about raw numbers.

333 million Americans, approximately 300 million of which are adults.

which isn't a clinical term anymore.

The clinical term for both psychopaths and sociopaths is antisocial personality disorder.

But when those were more acceptable terms, it was estimated that 1% of the American population fall under psychopathic.

3% of the American population fall under sociopathy or sociopathy, right?

So right there's 4% of the American public.

That's a law.

Add into that narcissistic personality disorder.

That's 6% of the American public.

That means 10% of the American adult population empirically are either psychopaths, sociopaths, or And just to quickly do the math, that's...

Say it to 30 million 30 million always like in my head I pause because I can't be doing the math, right?

You're doing the math, right?

That is that is the reaction that anybody should be having right now 30 million people fall into one of those three categories.

So when you meet somebody who acts like that Yes,

they are in exchange but you shouldn't be surprised because one out of every 10 is going to be one of those people.

You're gonna meet 10 people today.

There are more than 10 people in your office, right?

Empirically.

One out of every 10 people is one of those three categories.

All right, how do I test this?

We'll come to every single person in my company now and ask them questions.

I'm sure you're hiring standard filtered all that out.

But yes, so it's an extreme, but it's out there.

So because it's so prevalent, it makes your first question so much more viable.

How do you know when you're coming across a person like that?

So the first big thing to understand,

is to that you're you're you're

The telltale sign for somebody who is anti-social personality disorder your psychopaths and your sociopath the biggest thing is that they lack empathy

Empathy is the is the thing that makes us so that we can relate to somebody else's feelings different than sympathy

sympathy means that you hurt and And I'm sorry that you hurt and I'm here to give you my sympathy,

but I don't feel your pain pain, right?

Empathy means your hurt and I can put myself in your shoes and I can feel some of your pain, right?

When you are with a partner or when you have a love interest or you're dating somebody or it's your child or it's your parents,

when they don't feel empathy, they can't relate to you.

That is a big telltale sign that you might be dealing somebody who's on the spectrum of anti-social personality disorder.

Another major indicator is that they don't believe in the rules of conduct or the rights of others.

They don't believe that people are equal, right?

So they have certain rights and you have lesser rights.

So, they have a right to privacy, but don't.

They have a right to knowing how much money's in the account, but you don't, right?

So, they have this discrepancy in how they believe what they're entitled to versus what you're entitled to.

How would you test somebody subtly to see if they're like going on?

I like the way you're thinking, because exactly how you find out whether or not the person you're suspicious of.

deserves that suspicion or whether you're just being paranoid.

You have to test them.

So one of the best ways to test somebody for empathy is to make an unpredictable or unpredicted change.

Just change something, right?

If you all agree that you're gonna go to dinner on Tuesday night, cancel this.

and recommend, let's go Wednesday instead.

If roll with that change easily, and if you test them more than one time, because test by itself isn't really a test, right?

It's a test over days, weeks, months.

If you can make changes,

and they can accept those changes gracefully, then there's a very good chance that you're dealing with a normal, rational human being.

If you start making changes and then they start guilting you or accusing you or if they start getting angry,

if they have volatile emotions that are in line with the changes that you're proposing,

it shows that they already think that their time is more valuable than your time.

Which now is an indicator that you're either dealing with somebody Or you're dealing with somebody who is on that spectrum of personality disorder,

whether it's narcissism or whether it's anti-social behavior.

But if they can't handle it, It's a good sign that you're not dealing with somebody who sees you as an equal.

So with Dirty John,

we would have seen if they had asked him certain questions,

they would have seen him potentially getting angry or having a visceral emotional response to something that is maybe not as extreme.

Correct, because change happens all the time, right?

And a situation where people are equal, like a healthy relationship, this is something that people don't often realize.

A healthy relationship is transactionalized.

I have something that benefits you.

You have something that benefits me.

So we share our benefits together.

And an ideal relationship, us sharing our benefits results in a net win for both of us.

So the sum is greater than the total of the two parts, right?

So a healthy relationship should be transactional.

Give and take.

Sometimes I need your help, sometimes need my help.

In an unhealthy relationship, it's very one way.

It's a zero-sum game.

One wins, one person loses.

So you have to test whether your partner is willing to give and take, or whether they're just there to take.

Going again back to the empirical evidence of the predominance of ISFJ women

And I know that there's lots of different types of codes and there are women of all types of Myers-Briggs personality

types But the empirical evidence is one in five women is ISFJ

That ISFJ

She feels like she should trust this person Even though what she's seeing and what she's hearing tells her she shouldn't trust that person.

She feels like she should.

She sees that she shouldn't,

but then she falls on her J,

which tells her that as a woman in Western society, it's the right thing to do to give the benefit of the doubt.

It's the right thing to do to give somebody a second chance.

It's the right thing to do to let them prove themselves.

selves.

And it's a tricky and difficult place to be.

The more you test,

the more you learn,

the more information you have to challenge your instincts, which make you feel like you have to trust somebody that you shouldn't trust.

And is there sometimes like a piece of information that we hold on to as quote unquote evidence that we keep going back to,

but maybe that force evidence as well?

And the reason why I asked you is dirty John, apparently, everyone said, Oh, he was always saying, like, what a great father he was.

And you know, he was so loving to these to his two daughters.

And so let's say you're meeting him for the first time you hear about, Oh my God, is this great father?

Maybe you meet the daughters.

You think, Oh my God, they've got a great relationship.

Then you see signs on the contrary.

you keep going back to maybe false evidence that no but I must be imagining it because he's clearly an amazing father.

So what you're talking about now is something we call the relevancy principle.

The relevancy principle dictates that whatever is the most relevant should carry the most empirical weight.

So, if you made a delicious steak two years ago, but every steak that you've made since

then has just not been right,

I shouldn't keep asking you to make steak because over time what you're showing is that you have lost relevancy in the art of making a good steak.

It's the same thing with Dirty John.

could he have been a good father?

Sure.

Could he have been a good father four days ago?

Sure.

But what is he today?

And is he most often?

What is the most relevant piece of information that you're getting?

It's not necessarily that the evidence was false.

He really did do nice things at some point.

But he's also very realistically done, dirty, suspicious, dishonest things since then.

So you've got to fall back on the relevancy principle.

This is another trap that women will fall into more often than men,

because of the whole societal pressure to give people the benefit of the doubt.

The person, he just slapped you.

He just called you stupid.

Whatever, he spent money on the credit card and lied about it.

Whatever he just did, he just did it.

According to the relevancy principle, that has to carry more weight than what he did six months ago or two weeks ago or even yesterday.

So if yesterday he said, I'm sorry babe, I'm going to do better.

And today he didn't do better.

you have to put more weight in the action that he took today than the promise he made yesterday.

How do you reinforce that thing?

Because love it.

I think it's so strong.

But you do end up in that moment if you're not used to it or practiced just reverting back to the means.

Right.

And nailed it on the head right there.

You have to practice.

So, there are certain tools that are very basic tools that we use in the field all the

time to keep us away from the process of questioning and reverting.

Right?

A journal is a fantastic tool, very simple tool to use.

You keep a daily log or a morning log and an evening log.

You keep some kind of journal to remind yourself of what is relevant in that moment.

So then when something happens on a Tuesday,

you can open your journal and go back to last Tuesday and see the journal entries and start to see what is the predominance of information.

Without the journal, we forget.

Our short-term memory only lasts for between seven and 14 seconds.

Whoa!

It's super...

And in that short term,

7 to 14 seconds,

our brain is deciding whether or not to move something from short term memory into long term memory,

but long term memory still only lasts about 72 hours.

It has,

then there's different categories,

different types of long-term memory,

that your long-term memory will shift into, to make permanent memories or make academic memories or make skilled behavior memories, right?

So when it comes to behaviors of people, if we don't value it in the first seven to 14 seconds, we won't even remember it.

If we do value it,

because we think it's suspicious or we think it's dishonest, we'll hold on to it for maybe the next 48 hours.

But after 48 hours, we let it go.

If don't do something else to make it permanent.

So if you wanna look back over the last seven days of the a journal is a fantastic tool.

A voice memo, a diary.

These are all simple tools that we can use, right?

I've even met field officers who just kept the job.

are.

So two jars and marbles.

And all they would do is they would put a marble into the good jar when they saw a good behavior and a marble into the bad jar when they saw a bad

behavior.

you just see, oh, there's a predominance of bad behavior.

And though you don't know these specific examples,

you get the gut feeling that you need to make the decision that you know is in your best interest.

And that visually, you just can't ignore it.

You ignore it.

You rationalize your way out of that.

But when you're sitting across from somebody who's a common abuser or someone who actually is a narcissist or anti-social personality disorder,

when you're sitting across from them,

because they lack empathy,

they know exactly how to make

you Because making you feel good is just a matter of giving you what you want

So they say the things you like they act the way you want them to act because they logically rationally they understand

What you cognitively are trying to achieve they don't feel but they can see it academically.

The that is most often used to describe a psychopath is someone who is cold-blooded.

Cold-blooded is something that we often think of means like they'll murder you in cold blood.

What cold-blooded really means is that they don't get heated.

They don't get passionate.

They don't get excited.

They get angry.

They don't have that hot, that makes you have a temper.

Instead, they're always very detached.

That's what cold-blooded means.

From that cold-blooded position,

they can literally read your patterns of

behavior because they don't get distracted by all the emotions that you and I get distracted by that keep us from seeing a pattern.

Well, would it be harder to interrogate someone like that because they're not showing it?

Emotions and ebbs and flows it's harder to interrogate them on an emotional basis Yes,

because they are very stable in their emotions compared to a sociopath right, psychopath sociopath, both anti-social personality disorder.

Sociopaths have very dynamic ranges of emotions.

Narcissists have very dynamic ranges of emotions.

So good news for women is if you're dealing with a partner who can flip a switch on their emotions,

you're not dealing with a psychopath.

Even though a lot of times like I know for men,

when men see women go from extremely happy to extremely angry, we're like, oh God, you're a psycho.

It's It the cycle is the person who never goes through those extremes somebody who goes to those extremes is the definition of the

opposite So,

when you're interrogating or when you're questioning somebody and you see that very stable,

detached, emotional foundation, you know that you're dealing with somebody who's on that spectrum of anti-social personalities.

Fascinating.

I've got a few more cases that I'd love to take you through,

but we actually do, one thing I've always wondered is why are women so obsessed with true crime and serial killers?

So I think there's a couple of reasons there, right?

I think that it's not just women, first of all.

Men also love true crime, but there's a difference in perspective.

I think when men look at true crime, they're putting themselves in the shoes of the detective trying to solve the crime.

And lot of times when women look at true crime, they're putting themselves in the shoes of the victim of the crime.

You're so right.

So men are like, how would I have saved this woman?

And the women are like, how do I never become?

right?

Two different points of view on the same true crime case.

But think that the obsession with true crime, first of all, it's a very Western obsession.

It doesn't really exist in the east.

It doesn't really exist as an entertainment format in most other parts of the world, right?

It's something that really only exists, or predominantly exists in wealthy Western society, Europe, the United States, Canada.

And it's because we have the space and the kind of society where criminal activity is reduced.

If think about it practically, we outsource our security.

Who's responsible for your safety?

For a second, I going to my husband.

Outsourced.

In reality, it should be you.

If you ask any Indian woman and Mumbai who's responsible for her safety, she will be like it.

I am.

If ask a Pakistani woman who's responsible for your safety, I am, right?

It's my job to keep myself safe.

everybody else is a criminal and,

you know, they've been raised that way from their whole life because literally crime is a way of life in most parts of the world.

But in Western society, the police keep us safe.

We expect all people to follow rule of law and have order in their lives.

So when we come across these ideas of serial killers who are exceptional,

And they're such effective exceptions to the rule that they don't just kill once.

They kill multiple times without being discovered, without being caught.

Sometimes even if they are caught,

they get off because the evidence or the legal structure or happened and the evidence can't be held against them.

So it becomes...

this thread, this wolf out there in the hills that we can't ever really see.

So become worried about the thing that we don't understand, we become nervous about the thing that we believe is the exception.

Again, going back to math and going back to empirical evidence, serial killers are actually on the day.

Their peak was in the 1970s and 1980s.

I when we say peak, it's like 300-ish deaths per year were attributed to serial killers.

And serial killers are about 1% of all homicides.

So, 70s and 80s were at their peak, and even at their peak, they were only about 300-ish.

One life lost is too many lives lost.

When look at serial killers now, serial killing in 2023, I think there were 14 serial killers.

And I think the person who killed the most killed three people.

Oh, interesting.

So when you compare the 1980s to the 2000s.

it's very different.

Now you're talking about maybe 50 serial killer deaths in an entire year in the United States and a big part of the reason that decline is happening is because technology

and police investigative techniques have improved so quickly that they can now catch,

detain, arrest, and serial killer after they've only killed once or even twice.

So you just don't have the Ted Bundy's anymore that can kill 14 or 25 people.

And we have the true crime shows now that are forming a more experienced and knowledgeable about the serial killer.

Well, because I was born in 79, and so for me, the Bundy era, the Green River Killer,

was all very real and like hearing about it growing up.

fascinated me in how they end up being able to manipulate and trap these women.

And think a big thing was you mentioned the word wolf.

That's exactly what I was thinking that as a kid we were taught that danger men,

it was someone that had the big fangs, the drooling, that looked very aggressive.

Those are the people you should stay clear of.

but your neighbor, the guy that's just friendly, no, he's lovely, right?

And unfortunately,

those are the people you end up trusting because you're looking for the person with the fangs,

but actually, it's the wolf in the sheep's clothing that we need to be aware of.

And Bundy's story, it's like that one woman, Carol DeWont, I think her name was, that was the one person that escaped.

it's like to think through what would have happened to her if she didn't spot

these weird signs and then trust her instinct to make her move.

He acts as if he's a police officer I think and I think he has his arm in a car and so he

asks the woman to help him and she's like okay you're a police officer sure I'll give you help.

and then he walks to his Volkswagen bug and she's like, a police officer with a Volkswagen bug, you know.

So she was confused and she's like, well, I guess.

And he's like, I just need to come to the station.

Oh, her car got broken into supposedly.

So she's like, okay, you want me to come to the station?

So she gets in the car and like, no handles or the handles.

been removed or something and that's when she was like what the hell and so she like jams the door

open as like the car's moving and she jumps out of a moving car.

When I think about that story The sweet Lisa at 16,

that was like,

you know,

do as people say, people please, if I had even spotted all of those little things, I still would have sat in the cocks.

I'm well, you can't jump out of the moving car.

He's going to think you're silly and ridiculous for acting so extreme.

So with us women, that's why I was asking you about the signs and things of that.

How do we start to identify these little things that are sparking on that are maybe waving the flags,

that we shouldn't then ignore and we should actually act on them.

It's about changing the system that you use to make your decision-making.

Because your example of the sweet Lisa at 16,

her system of making decisions, was based off of what is the other person going to think of me?

Or what will my parents think if this person tells a story about me jumping out of a moving car?

Or I go home all scuffed up and bruised, how are they going to react?

Even if I tell them, I think I was being kidnapped so I jump out of a car.

Are they still going to scold me?

Are they still going to shame me?

That the system is what makes up the frame of reference in an ISF J.

The J means that there's a system, a rubric that you have to follow, a societal norm that you have to follow.

Once you change the norm to a new norm, system, but you have to be willing to think a different way to change that system.

If you use the example that you just were talking about from the Ted Bundy case,

everything that woman saw was something that one of her five senses picked up.

The cast, the Volkswagen, the Miss.

The questions that he was asking and they didn't make sense.

So again, you can see how her personality Which was one in five chance ISFJ.

She was getting information that didn't make sense to her And yet she also was still complying with the guidance that that she was getting right

That compliance process is so difficult to break out of when your J is dictated to you by society.

Why you think Ted Bundy said he was a police officer?

Authority.

Instant compliance.

If was some academic professor or if he was like a lifeguard or if he was a restaurant

Nobody feels compelled to comply with somebody like that,

but you do feel compelled to comply with a priest, with a teacher, with a police officer, a doctor, right?

So they take on those roles.

There was a case, I believe it was the Tinder swindler.

They grant you the authority of the position that you claim to be in.

They even comply to the point where they don't investigate independently to verify your claims.

And it's a dangerous world that we live in, and it's especially dangerous.

because of the few people who are the wolves in sheep's clothing trying to prey on the openly vulnerable.

Well I'm glad you brought up the tinder swindler by the way because that's actually the next one that I would love to talk to you

about.

So people that may not know who the tinder swindler is I'm just going to give you a little recap and so this guy had pretended that he was a wealthy

heir working in the dangerous diamond And so after he'd been dating one woman for a while,

he'd explained that he was in danger,

send videos of his bodyguards believing,

and tell his girlfriend that he needed to use a credit card in someone else's name so he couldn't be tracked.

So according to the film,

his girlfriend sent credit cards to count loans and lines a credit, even flew suitcases of withdrawing cash to him in his time of need.

He promised them he'd pay them back.

Of course,

they believed him and he women's flew private everywhere,

stayed at the fanciest hotels and was always dripping in designer clothes and he did pay them back with checks that bounced.

Fake watches and bank transfers that never went through little did each woman know that

all the wealth they wore witnessed too had been paid for by the women who came before all them women who were by the time.

alone in debt or by that time alone in debt and desperate for answers.

So the reality is only a little bit different in the movie.

The reality is that the tinder swindler and he was an Israeli citizen.

He specialized in check and banking fraud.

So if you remember back a long time ago,

catch me if you can, but in order to catch a movie, that was another example of a con man who specialized in check fraud.

So the timberswindler is just a modern day version of that.

So he specialized in this ability to make fraudulent checks and fraudulent fake transfers.

So would ingratiate himself with a wealthy family.

It started, my understanding is it all started when he actually was a babysitter for a wealthy family in Israel.

And stole the checkbook of that wealthy family.

The child behind, when he was supposed to be caring for the child, and that was kind of how he got his start.

And then he started cashing their checks for himself.

From there,

he became a wanted criminal in Israel,

and he was able to escape Israeli custody,

and then go to the West,

where he just continued to calm one,

wealthy women,

doing exactly what the tinlers from their movie was about,

getting their credit cards,

getting their bank accounts,

getting their check and getting their debit cards,

and then running up their bills, always promising that there was a reason for it or conning them in some way, shape, or form.

But specializing in this,

his ability to basically cash checks a certain way so that nobody really knew when the check was being cashed or who owned the phone.

funds.

And ultimately, he was wanted in multiple different countries.

And he was young.

I mean, this guy is about 31 years old when he was at the peak of his activity.

And they started looking at his life,

what they realized is that he had actually been engaged in fraudulent check activity,

fraudulent money activity, all the way back to his early teens, 13, 14 years old in Israel.

And then a big part of that came because his parents were also party to criminal and illicit activities when he was growing up.

So one of the that we haven't talked about yet is that this spectrum, number 10% of the American population.

falls under a psychopath, sociopath, or narcissist.

That 10% of people, the formula that makes them who they are, is part genetic and part environmental.

What kind of childhood do you have?

What kind of parents do you have?

What foundational emotions, what foundational survival instincts do your parents ingrain in you?

In this case,

the Tinder Swindler was programmed with the sense of self-reliance,

that you had to be nefarious, you to be sneaky, you to be a trickster, you to lie.

So ethical question is,

Was programmed completely different than the average person now lying was needed to survive

Right and survival was and and success was defined by how effectively you lied and how much you stole

The average working-class American family who's taught to believe in hard work and honesty in the pursuit of happiness

that is the total antithesis for them.

Which is why my mind doesn't go there when I meet people.

The thing I'm thinking of is, oh, they're a complete quirk, and got criminal record, and they've done all this dodgy stuff.

So how do you then start to know in those situations,

because sending them photos, right, of like, oh, and he's like his face, and like the bodyguards, like, bleep.

you would think that that would be evidence.

How do you start to identify when someone's actually withholding so many secrets?

Because the fact that he was able to do all of that and have such a background that he never got found out is crazy to me.

And if 10%

really are all those things,

how do you start to know if they're lying or not and then pull out they're trying to keep from you.

I would actually flip that on the, I would flip that on its axis.

Okay.

It's not your job to worry about other people.

That's the F in the ISFJ.

You feel like, and society has put a rubric on you, where you feel like you are responsible for worrying about other people.

That's why women end up oftentimes feeling like they have to please others.

It's their responsibility to make others feel good.

What I would recommend is that we completely change that mindset, right?

The first thing that every human being, and especially for this conversation we're having, it would mean the world to me.

If every woman who hears this conversation,

The first thing that she asks herself,

the first statement that goes through her head, every time she meets a new male, is one in ten.

One in ten.

Is this person in front of me?

One out of the one out of the ten that is going to be on this spectrum.

First question, is this person one out of the ten?

That doesn't mean you don't talk to anybody,

that doesn't mean you question them, it mean you assume they are, but you ask yourself the question.

Right now you're not asking yourself that question.

Everybody with a blank slate.

Everybody comes with an opportunity, benefit of the doubt.

We should change that rubric.

This is not a benefit of the doubt type of world that we live in.

We now live in a world where we should say,

oh, The second thing that we should that women should pay attention to how quickly do you like somebody?

Because the faster you like them really quickly Andrew you need to slow yourself down because you already know

What's gonna happen if you like them too fast

They're going to get your trust and they don't deserve your trust yet People who are not nefarious are oftentimes the hardest people to like.

They're socially awkward, they're a little bit rude, they're kind of rough around the edges.

So you don't fall in love with them very quickly.

But probably very honest people.

They're honest,

which is exactly why they don't know how to manipulate the environment, manipulate your experience to make you like them and trust them so quickly.

So you're dealing with somebody that's a little bit like aggravating or irritating, chances are they're not trying to manipulate you.

But if you're dealing with somebody who like, I really like that person, they always know what to say, they totally get me.

Time out.

No like trust.

Am liking them too fast?

Have I already started trusting them and are they one?

Are they the one?

If you just ask yourself those two questions and you're constantly reminding yourself that those two things exist, you're going to slow the process down.

We have a concept in espionage called time, distance, and change in direction.

And that concept basically means that you need to create time,

space, so that because time will tell you if something is real or not, you need to create distance when you're always If

doing then the pattern is set and it's harder to see changes and deviations from the pattern than when you're physically apart, right?

So it's like the reason we don't move in too fast with a boyfriend or move in too fast

with a girlfriend is because once you're living on top of each other,

it's very hard to see how the other person responds to the distance element.

Instead of dating every day, we date every three or five or 12 days, right?

Like yourself distance and give yourself time to find the interruptions in the pattern.

Give that manipulator space and time to screw up because someone who's genuine is going to be very consistent because they are genuinely

demonstrating who they are.

and then change in direction,

like I was telling you about testing earlier,

you want to make changes, changes in direction will tell you a lot about how a person reacts to change.

And if you're the one dictating the change,

it tells them a lot, it tells you a lot about how they react to you being in control.

A fair and equitable partner understands, sometimes you're in control, sometimes I'm in control because it's a transactional relationship.

A nefarious or malicious partner will never accept that you're the one making a change.

They will always get upset about it and they will turn that against you.

So what about those scenarios?

Because I love that breakdown,

but the spacing almost I get why you're saying it,

but there is something to,

someone who's trying to manipulate or lie or deceive you,

use that space as a way to not have to keep interacting with you,

giving you information that maybe then later they forget,

because almost have to keep track of what they say to then say,

let's say six months down the line, hang on a minute, that didn't drive with something else they say.

So when you're talking about someone with malicious intent, it's actually the other way around.

People with malicious intent want to reduce that space.

The they have space in the beginning, so think about Dirty John again.

Dirty John was on a dating app, so he was cultivating multiple cons at one time.

Well, the only way he can cultivate that many cons is by being distant from all of them.

Right.

But he started to hone in on which ones were the most susceptible, his job was to close distance as quickly as possible.

Think of it like a lion hunting a gazelle.

A lion is going to sit and watch the herd.

find the sick and the elderly of the herd and then when the herd starts to run he

will that lion or lioness will pick the slowest one to attack.

and then dedicate all of their resources into closing the distance and attacking that one prey that is most susceptible to them.

That's exactly what Dirty John was doing.

That is what the Tinder swindler was known to do as well,

was to cultivate multiple cons until the one showed itself as most susceptible and then very quickly close distance and introduce that manipulative behavior.

And there is a process to manipulation that's important to understand,

and I'm sure we'll get to it,

but when you start to see that manipulative behavior,

If you've done a good job of,

is this person one of the 10, am I liking them too fast, have I used time, distance, and in direction?

And if you've done all of those things,

and you're like the Ted Bundy woman,

who is like,

where's the door handles,

why is he a police officer in a Volkswagen,

these data points of evidence that you should not trust the person, and that's the moment where she jumped out of a moving car.

We all have to accept that sometimes to keep ourselves safe, that is what we must do.

We must be willing to jump out of a rolling car.

No matter what society thinks of us, our safety.

is our responsibility.

Not the police, not mom and dad, not our husband, not our spouse, our safety is our responsibility.

And if that means that your parents

are gonna yell at you because you come back

with torn jeans and a scuffed elbow and they never believe that you saved your own life to hell with them.

You just saved your own

life Who cares what society thinks there has to be a time when we're willing to challenge the societal norm and understand that the societal norm is not there for our best interest

It's there for the best interest of societal order.

It's there for 90% of circumstances.

It's not there for the 10% of bad guys who are out there looking for us.

When I think about Dirty John's,

the daughter who ends up stabbing him, to think through My life is at stake at this point, so I will kill back, right?

It to take that for her to then make sure that he never does that again.

Obviously, I'm suggesting people just go and kill people.

But the fact that it was like her life or his, she ended up having to take his.

But I think of how many of us, don't feel the threat in that way, right, where it's your life or death.

But lot of the time it is from like a emotional standpoint,

like it's the death of your emotions, the death of your soul, when someone can do something like that.

So you know, and I think a big thing is, you end up not only not trusting other people, you end up not trusting yourself.

Right, and that distrust of yourself is one of the key things that a manipulator is looking for.

Because if you already don't trust yourself, self.

What that means is you put your trust somewhere else.

Because we all have to trust.

We need a North Star.

We all need a guiding light, a compass.

So when a manipulator sees someone who doesn't trust It's the perfect opportunity to step in and be the thing that they trust.

Again, was mentioning how I know that I'm privileged to be sitting on the show with you as a male on the show.

And I know it's not just because you like my hair or you think I'm friendly.

Hair is dope for me.

And you are very friendly.

It's because CIA has a process for manipulating people.

It's what CIA does.

It's how it works.

CIA's job is to manipulate foreign targets into providing secrets to the United States

that give the United States an unfair advantage in military economics and political power.

Our job is to follow a very systematic manipulation process and identify the people who are susceptible to that specific manipulation process.

It's what we're designed to do.

And one of the prime things that we look for when we're cultivating a target, just Dirty John, just the Tinder stuff.

Windler when we're when we're cultivating one out of many many targets what we're looking for is maybe you go to bed at night

Just dismissing your dreams and saying no no my life is just fine

But my home do you actually want to live a fine life or do you actually want to wake up every day with utter full rusty and go

After that dream or that desire that you absolutely have and you

deserve I wrote the book that gives you the 11 lessons on how on earth you take action even when you don't feel good enough

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Who is the person and that demonstrates an inherent distrust for themselves.

And then as we get to know and find those people, we then start to look for what the sources of their distrust of themselves.

And when we find that the source of their distrust stems back to their childhood, is that typically where it comes from?

It comes from different places.

So there are some people who distrust themselves because they made poor decisions in college or they made bad decisions with money when they were,

you know, in their 20s or 30s.

So there's all sorts of different places where people start to doubt themselves.

But you find someone who's self-doubt stems back to their childhood,

now what you know is you have somebody who is deeply conditioned be dependent on someone else.

So George was a politician, a corrupt politician, who lied about everything and still made it to Congress.

When you look at his background,

he came from a very poor Brazilian family,

where he was one of several children where mom and dad were highly successful and

the children were kind of left to fend for themselves with a rotating door of nannies and whatever else, right?

So in this, in this Brazilian corrupt family.

This is where he kind of built his foundation.

This is his wiring was made.

So is anybody surprised that as he became a 40-year-old male in the United States in a predominantly paternal society that he felt absolute

lying about his educational background,

about his work history,

about everything else, to win a vote and then is it not the ultimate con to basically con a constituency into voting for you?

I mean, that is exactly how manipulation works.

You manipulate the emotions of people.

who are susceptible to that manipulation.

So he knew what the right message was,

what right congressional district to get voted by saying the right things,

just like spies collect assets by knowing what to say

and what

Change the vein of trust so that the target trusts the spy or trusts the con man or a

Constituency trusts their congressional representative or somebody trusts their doctor or somebody trusts the CEO of a company Okay, well teased us enough now.

You've got to tell us what those that manipulation Would you call it?

Yeah the progression progression?

Yeah, do mind breaking that down?

So so the first thing that you're looking for?

Remember I talk about sense making.

So sense making is a process that was refined and identified during the Vietnam War in the 1970s.

because it was very difficult for American interrogators to get information from the Viet Cong who were being captured.

So the United States Army invested in this massive psychological program

to be able to identify how we can systematically change

someone's loyalty or how we can systematically manipulate people to a place where they comply with your bidding.

So the first step in the sense making process is called

And what avoidance means is you have to accept and acknowledge that every time you approach a stranger their natural instinct is avoidance.

And if you really think about it, it's how all of us are.

The first time you meet somebody new, you actually want to avoid them.

And they actually want to avoid you.

But it's the societal construct.

That makes us say things like, good morning.

How are you?

What do you say 90 times?

Nine times out of ten when somebody says, how are you?

Fine.

Even if it's not true.

Because in your mind, what you're really thinking is, how do I end this conversation?

How do I end this Talking to a stranger.

I'm already thinking about something else.

I'm going somewhere else.

The thing I want to do is actually be present and thoughtful In this conversation with a stranger, right?

So avoidance is the place where it all starts So inside of sense making you have to account for the fact that when you first approach somebody they will try to avoid you

So a manipulator inherently understands that the first time they approach a the target will want to avoid them

Now the tricky part to avoidance is that within the societal culture that we live in Persistence is deemed a value.

It's something that we appreciate and honor So,

when you try to avoid somebody,

but that other person is persistent in catching your attention,

or, in the case of a they're persistent in giving you something that you want,

then all of a sudden you move out of avoidance and you stop trying to avoid them,

and instead you move into the next phase of the sense-making cycle, which is called competition.

Competition is when there's an exchange...

And sometimes it's heated, like sometimes it's, I disagree with you.

And other times it's, tell me more or let me, you know, prove it to me.

Competition this push pool where relationships start to get built.

Manipulators understand you have to push through avoidance to get to competition.

But once somebody is in the competition phase of sense making, what they're really showing you is that they're willing to exchange ideas with you.

If you think of it in terms of something we call social capital,

it's a CIA term, social capital means I'm investing my capital in you.

And I'm expecting a return on my investment.

That's So, you push somebody through avoidance, you get them to start sharing their opinions and their ideas.

Well, once you start telling me your opinions and your ideas, what you're doing is investing in this relationship.

So once you get them talking, you know that that's the first hook.

Yeah, exactly right.

Once you push past avoidance,

which you know you can do with a susceptible target,

Dirty John knew he could do it,

the Tinder swindler knew he could do it,

because with the right person,

they can't avoid for very long because their J makes them feel like they're being rude,

and then society dictates that you at least show some fear.

exchange.

And like she would said way earlier is that you just go out and do it multiple times and it's the one person.

So let's say you get avoidance from 20 people, but there may be that one person ends up going into the, sorry, what the phase?

The competition phase.

So that's when they're like, okay, so now let me narrow in on this person.

Focus resources and close the distance.

Right, right, right.

So in competition, ideas.

The whole reason that you invest in that person with your social capital inside of that competition phase is because you know that after enough competition they will be so invested

in the relationship that they will start to look for your validation.

validation that your ideas are credible, or validation that you need to change the way that you think.

And then the final phase after competition is called compliance.

And is exactly what it sounds like.

Inside compliance phase, you have now outsourced some element of your thinking or some element of your decision-making to the other person.

How often do you go to Tom, your husband, and ask him his thoughts on something?

How often do you ask him to help you make a A lot.

Sometimes almost know he's going to influence me and so I deliberately don't ask him because I need to figure out my own answer.

And that's you being self-aware.

to know that you don't want to be compliant.

You want to be independent, but you are a highly educated, successful, experienced over 40.

Thank you.

You have that, you have learned that the hard way.

There are lots of men and women out there who have yet to learn that lesson,

who believe that there's something honorable about finding a partner who they trust so much,

that they can outsource every decision, every conversation, they can be totally transparent with the person, right?

Because they're looking for that marriage that we were talking about early on, where it's two opposites who complement each other.

When you're so dedicated to finding that perfect fit,

you're oftentimes more susceptible and willing to accept an imperfect fit and just choosing to ignore the warning signs.

So that compliant piece is the final piece that they know,

okay, they are now reliant on me and I can influence them in a way that I wasn't able to.

Correct.

If you go back to the larger SAD-RAT,

the sad rat process, all of that compliance competition and avoidance phase, that all happens inside of no life.

that all happens inside of the development phase.

And once you know that you have a reliable,

susceptible, controllable source, once you know that they're suitable to constantly be manipulated, then you move them into the recruitment phase of that relationship.

And now you switch their loyalty.

They are no longer loyal to themselves, they are loyal to you.

And that is what a manipulator wants.

That is exactly what, a sociopath wants, that's exactly what a narcissist wants, that's exactly what a psychopath wants.

They somebody who is wholly dependent on their guidance,

their direction, their control, because when they have that person, then all of their personal needs are met, right?

Psychopaths get to hurt the person,

psychopaths have that tendency towards violence,

sociopaths get to manipulate that person and use them like a tool, narcissists get their constant validation and constant self-aggrandizement.

And how long does that roughly take?

Is it is there an average?

So the the recognized average to turn a So this is a CIA standard to completely switch someone's loyalty from their country to you takes about six months on average

So when it comes to a personal relationship where the stakes are much much less it can happen much faster

It can happen anywhere anywhere from 30 to 90

days to get someone to completely abandon their own personal values and switch their loyalty to you.

It really depends on how much time and distance the manipulator can take to shrink the time frame, right?

The closer they are, the more it's called time on target.

The more time on target they have with their specific target of manipulation, the more they can control that person's value.

The more that they can train that person to adopt certain behaviors,

it can happen very rapidly, and I think that is a big part of why women have to slow things down.

I'm not saying that they have to kiss on the 15th instead of the first date.

I'm not saying they have to not go to bed with the guy,

but what I'm saying is the thing that is really Precious is our sense of independence and once you merge your independence

with somebody else then there's it's hard to take it back.

So the faster you give someone your independence, essentially the faster you've fallen through no like trust.

That's something that weighs on me a lot is that when it comes to relationship specific,

that's the thing that dense women's confidence that I've just seen the most.

And is that speed and that closeness?

And maybe that's why.

But when I think about someone who's been in a toxic business relationship or something,

it's like if they've been manipulated,

that the healing process and the damage emotionally,

I've never seen as heavy as when it's a couple and it's someone that you actually fall for.

And kind of thinking as you're,

you know,

putting your hands together and doing that closeness thing,

I was thinking about how much that must be a big part of it because you get closer to them than you do to anybody.

that you've said, the isolation and things like that, isolating someone that they're the only person you can emotionally turn to.

Now, to the control part that you were just talking about, they really have like almost ultimate control if they can control not just what you say or what you do,

but how you feel.

And then when you put all of that through the lens of a personality type,

And con men are notoriously uneducated, like they're smart, but they're not educated.

So I would never imagine that a malicious actor actually understands personality types.

But oftentimes the women who are conned are highly educated.

they're very, very smart.

Sometimes they're so smart that they talk themselves out of the warning signs that they themselves see.

So understand that if you are that highly successful woman, if you are that woman who is longing for a partner that's a perfect fit.

Take your Myers-Briggs personality type indicator,

find out what your Myers-Briggs type is because it will tell you so much about how you're wired.

And you know how you're wired, then you can start to understand both who you're looking for because they will be the opposite of you.

But you can also understand how the opposite of you can present themselves in very unhealthy ways.

So that gives you a chance to avoid the wrong person and attract the right person.

I am super pro woman and we've had this conversation.

I was raised by a single mom and my grandmother.

I have two sisters.

I am so proud of my daughter.

I very proud to be raising a little boy who understands that boys and girls are equals, right?

when I married my wife, I took her last name.

Oh, wow, I didn't even realize that.

So my wife's maiden name is my current married name, which totally confused the banks, confused my universities and everybody else, right?

Made very happy when I took my wife's last name because they basically had someone who had a legal name change, so really worked out.

But I am one of the biggest fans out there for women doing amazing things,

because from what I've seen of women in my life, women can do things that would make a man cringe or break under pressure.

That said, Everybody, including women, have to take responsibility for their own decisions.

And the more we feel like there's some sort of safety in outsourcing our decisions, it's a false sense of security.

When we feel like there's some sort of honor in subjecting ourselves to somebody else because it makes life easier,

or it makes us feel comfortable, or it makes us feel secure.

There's also inherent risk in that.

That doesn't mean you can't do it.

It just means be very, very selective in how you do it.

Be very empirical, be very intentional, be very patient.

Because the person who loves you, they're going to love you whether it takes you seven days.

to actually, you know, let them into your, what we call, a secret life, right?

So actually, yeah, if you don't want to break down the three lives.

So everybody has three lives, and these three lives dictate kind of how we interact with the world around us.

There's your public life.

life, your public life is what you do every day.

When put on your clothes,

when put on your makeup,

when you put on your fake smile, when you call somebody on the phone and you sound energetic when you're actually tired.

Who does that?

That persona is your public life.

It's what everybody sees and you do it so that you can protect your inner lives.

life and your secret life.

So if the public knows your public life,

then you have your small group of friends and associates and peers, the closest group, they know your private life.

So while your public life, they may think that you always look beautiful.

You're in your private life.

They know that milk gives you gas and your feet really stink That's your private life a small circle of people who really know you and you show vulnerability with the people in your private life

You don't show vulnerability with the people in your public life But then there's a third level called your city Inside your secret life,

that is a place where you and only ever may be a handful of people will ever actually get to go.

Because it's inside your secret life where you hide your shame.

It's where you hide your embarrassment.

It's where you hide all the things about yourself that you are the most guilty and fearful and regret and remorseful about.

That's all in your secret life.

Going back to the no like trust model

When you let somebody into your secret life you basically never let them leave

So even if they violate your trust

Even if they disappear for 15 years and go do something else around the world and they come back into your life

They come right back into your secret Once someone gets there, you can't really ever kick them out.

It's very similar to when you fall into trust.

When you trust somebody, they can abuse your trust, and they get the benefit of the doubt over and over again.

Ultimately, someone can violate your trust enough that you don't trust them anymore.

And I guarantee you there are people listening to this conversation right now saying,

fuck that, once they violate my trust once, I never trust them again.

If that's what you're saying to yourself,

then I believe that you believe that,

but empirical research shows quite the opposite,

that you actually trust somebody,

you're willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, maybe it takes two weeks, maybe it takes two years, but they have a chance.

Again, that's because they're inside your secret.

CIA trains us the methodology to get through each of those lives.

We've covered that methodology today.

Sad sense making, and no like trust all bring people into, you get into someone's secret life if you follow that method.

Manipulators inherently intrinsically understand that there's a process, but they spend their lives practicing.

to figure out that process through the school of hard knocks.

They try manipulating mom and dad, maybe it works, maybe it doesn't.

They manipulating their brother or sister, maybe it works, maybe it doesn't.

By the time they hit about 31 years old, how old was a tender swindler, 31 years old?

By the time they hit that age, they've got to figure it out.

Dirty John was in his late 40s.

He it out, right?

Narcissists, basically their peak narcissistic activity is from 25 to 35.

But your sociopaths and your psychopaths, your antisocial personality disorder, their peak of skill is between 35 and 35.

Because they figured it out by the time they get to roughly 30.

Right.

I had the benefit of going to a secret school with a CIA hosted.

That's where I learned it.

But for everybody else who doesn't get to go through a curriculum to learn it, they learn it through the school of practice and experience.

And unlike the average person, a narcissist or a sociopath or someone with anti-social personality disorder.

However, they find the process of hacking a human brain.

They find it so interesting, they dedicate themselves to it.

Whereas other people are dedicating themselves to learning about brain surgery or environmentalism or engineering.

So, it's just about

So, okay, that was so great the way that you broke that down and I understand how you could

try to get someone else from their public to private to secret.

Now for yourself,

in fact you personally,

as a CIA person that's been trained at this,

do you,

are you conscious of when someone goes from public to private in your world and are you conscious when someone goes from private to secret?

So, let's quick look.

Thank you.

what are those gates, if you will, that for you, they have to do act show before they are able to enter that next gate.

The why I wanna make sure that I ask that is because if we can be more conscious of it,

then hopefully, if it's very, if it's true, that once you get into the secret life, there really is no getting out.

We need to be really freaking care of who, we give the keys to.

So how do we make sure who we give the keys to with consciousness that we don't regret it?

So it's a great question.

And...

The solution really lies in that framework I gave you called time, distance, and the direction.

And moves from my public life into my private life without passing a huge amount of time.

I do that on purpose because what do we know?

We know that it's inherent in human behavior that the more you like somebody, the more likely you are to trust them.

So I use time very intentionally to counterbalance my own intrinsic desire to want to like people.

So now I say I will like you if you're still my friend in six months right like

force the time elements and then I also force the day I've been very fortunate to have a successful business that's growing,

so there's an element of distance that's already built in.

I have to travel,

I have to work long hours,

I have to be with my team,

I can't always be with a friend, there's all sorts of reasons, I can't always be with a business colleague.

So distance is kind of built in,

time has been kind of built in, so I use those to help and pressure test a person's intentions.

Because if they're my friend today and they wanna meet every other day or every week, it just can't happen, right?

And I'm married and I have two kids.

Being married and having kids also forces distance, right?

If you're a single mom and you're trying to date, you know exactly what I'm talking about because it's just hard.

You've got so much responsibility at home, you simply can't go out and date every week or every Friday.

It has to be over a period of time.

And you have a partner who's trying to find more time with you,

chances they're doing it because they're trying to close the gap of time and distance.

And that could have malicious intent behind it.

So, I use time and distance and then I test just like you were talking about.

I am constantly testing my contacts to see are they trying to control me or are they willing to treat me as an equal.

So, I change plans, I change schedules, you I change locations, I change out

If they get, if they're resistant to that change, then I know that they don't value me on the same terms that they value themselves.

If they are willing to accept those changes and treat me like an equal or like a peer,

now between that and the time and the distance, now maybe they have earned the place to be in my place.

life.

One of my closer associates, right?

When you go through that process over and over again,

what ends up happening is the associates you have in your private life have all been thoroughly vetted

and they are all very protective of your secret life.

And they understand that there are some things about you that just need to be protected because they're beautiful on their own.

And they don't pry and they don't push and they don't manipulate because they have been vetted so thoroughly.

A lot of times when you let the wrong person in too fast, they want to keep moving fast.

So they start to pry and they start to dig

and they start to guilt you and they start to manipulate you and they start to try to get deeper and deeper and deeper.

They and they might even think that they're trying to help you.

But all it's doing to you is making you feel pressure,

and you feel guilt, and making you feel shame, which is exactly what you hide in your secret life anyways.

So they're not helping to get in, they're just making you feel even worse about the secret life that you are totally justified in having.

So those are actually really good ways of assessing then.

If they deserve to go into that next stage of your next life or not,

because if they're making you feel the shame or the guilt or the pressure,

then those are signs that maybe this isn't the person you should help elevate to the next level.

Correct, without a doubt.

But again, going back to that societal pressure, unfortunately we live in a society, especially the way that it's geared towards winning.

women, where when someone makes you feel guilty, women especially feel compelled to admit their guilt, admit their wrongdoing, and remediate it.

So now when someone is like, you should tell me exactly how with.

Women are like, oh, I feel guilty not telling that.

So maybe I should tell that because I don't want to be the person who's trying to keep a secret.

No, that is your secret life.

Nobody should get to know what's in your secret life.

And they should respect that you have a secret life.

Because if they really care about you, they know that with time and with security and with consistency.

see, if they are worthy, you will let them into your secret life.

They will learn about whatever abuses your parents may have done to you.

They will learn about the one that got away.

They will learn about all the things that we just don't talk about with other people.

And when that time comes for the right person, they will appreciate being let in.

When you've got somebody who...

When you've got somebody who's trying to get there, that a very clear warning sign that you're dealing with somebody who is a manipulator.

They're trying to find the keys to turn you on and off.

They're trying to isolate you and make you dependent on them.

They're trying to pry into your secret life.

No.

that once they get there, they're at the wheel.

They're at the helm.

What I didn't even realize until you were just talking, I do the opposite.

I give them my secret to then see if I can trust them or not.

Well, I didn't even realize I did that until you were just saying it.

And what I'm hoping that you mean by that is you give them small secrets, not like the biggest secrets.

No, but still, I mean it's like I may tell someone something that's, I feel like I can, like I think I can trust them.

Let me share the secret, but actually it's like they need to build the trust first in order for you to then share the secret.

Correct.

And one of the things that's difficult is there's a,

there's a,

there's a technique Elicitation is where it's a communication technique where you get people to overshare and there's a technique in elicitation called give to

get Which means you give something in order to trigger reciprocity in the other person so that they will give you something in return.

So if you think about it when you meet somebody at like a restaurant or whatever,

or you meet somebody that your friends introduced you to, it's oftentimes like, oh, where'd you go to school?

Or somebody will just say,

hey, I went to Colorado State, and the other person will say, oh, I went to Arizona State, that's give to get.

I'm telling you where I went to university,

fully expecting that your reciprocity will make you feel compelled to tell me where you went to university.

Train manipulators, or even experienced untrained manipulators, understand that you can use give to get with secrets, right?

So they might come up to you and like,

I have a secret, I really want to get off my chest and I feel like I can trust you.

That's not really what they're feeling, that's just what they're saying.

And they tell you their secrets.

You know,

I let my dog out when I was five years old,

and the dog never came home, and I think the dog was killed, and I never admitted it to my mom and dad, right?

They tell you that because do they feel empathy about the secret that may or may not be true?

No.

They're trying to trigger your empathy.

They're trying to get you to be like, oh, you just told me the secret.

That secret sounds so sad and so heartbreaking.

And I trust you more because you're giving me your secrets.

I feel like I should reciprocate and tell you some of my secrets.

Oh, well, let me, you know, since you're trusting me with that secret, let me tell you a about whatever.

Well, because social norm would say, you've got to keep, you share back.

Like it's, you can't just leave that person.

to that girl.

It's oh, you got to feel this space.

They've just told you something.

Make sure that you're telling them back.

Or if they're a narcissist, they're just looking for your validation.

Like, oh, that must be terrible.

I'm so sorry that you have to live with that memory.

You must be so strong keeping that to yourself.

Now you're just giving a narcissist exactly what they want.

That's so true, yeah, they don't want you to share this, like it's not about you.

Yeah, it's not about you at all.

Yeah.

So this whole thing we very much dove deep into a lot of details, but the example is we've given a very male centric.

And so I wanted to talk about Elizabeth Holmes.

This one fascinates me.

And so for people at home who do not know Elizabeth Holmes, do you want to give a recap or do you want me to?

Sure.

So Elizabeth Holmes was the of a major corporation that focused on blood testing.

She was able to basically build this multi-billion dollar value-weighted company.

off of fraudulent claims and falsified records and research reports.

In large part,

she was able to do it because she was working in collaboration with the COO of the company, who was further validating her claims.

So you had this perfect nightmare in the venture capital world of a CEO and a COO,

working in cahoots to validate each other's false claims.

The question then becomes, because this is such a departure from the stereotype.

Here you have essentially a female who is compulsively lying, who is creating false pretext and fraudulent records for a long period of time.

time, who is essentially carrying out what can be deemed to be anti-social behavior, breaking

social norms, showing a lack of empathy, stealing people's money, a woman, if you will.

This is not what people expect from a con person.

That's why they're called a con man, because expect this from a man, you don't expect this from a woman, right?

There is still a high prevalence.

There's still a prevalence though.

It's not the majority There's still a prevalence of anti-social personality disorder psychopaths and sociopaths who are

women They absolutely exist They don't exist to the same frequency as men,

but they do exist because of again,

we have to remember that that type of behavior, that's psychopath, your sociopathy, is a combination of genetics and environment.

Elizabeth grew up in a very well Her father was, I think, the president or CEO of Enron.

Her mother was a very well-established staffer in Washington, D.C.

When you put two people of that much power together, you can almost guarantee that they were not present and attentive parents.

She was probably raised by a series of nannies and tutors and who knows who else, right?

Maybe a grandmother or something like that.

Who knows who actually created the foundation for her.

But in addition to whatever foundation was created,

you can also see that she was conditioned that if then conditioned,

then then if if she was was conditioned,

wasn't successful financially successful, fame successful, if she wasn't in a position of high power, she was not going to be accepted by her parents.

So very quickly,

you can see going through our process of looking at the childhood to understand the manipulator,

you can see the foundation from where her antisocial behavior came from.

That doesn't mean you have to accept it or sympathize with it, but it gives you a rubric so that you can see, oh.

the gender away,

you basically have the same ingredients that happened with the Tinder swindler,

that with Dirty John,

that happened with George Santos,

they're all just mirror images of each other, and while genetics play in elements, they don't play as big of a role as environment.

God, the thinking of Really helps you go.

Oh, yeah, so you you shouldn't be biased when it's a female because they have just as I mean Maybe not just as much tendencies, but they they've got the foundation then they've got the ability

But it was so fascinating to see I don't know if you ever saw like older videos of her

And her when she was at the top where everyone thought that she was like the girl biggest company in the world, have voice changed.

So they literally put videos of her when she was in her teenage years and she has a normal voice.

And pull videos of her now and she talks like this.

She then also changed her clothes, so like the whole documentary on her is fascinating because she would look at the successful people around her.

Like, she deliberately manipulated people and molded herself into being the thing that...

that would give people the comfort to invest in her.

And so she put on these polo necks, like Steve Jobs.

So she wore black and she wore jeans, so she tried to mimic Steve Jobs and how he dressed.

She had read research about tone and voice and how commanding a room.

Actually, if you go deeper voice and you can command a room more, so she starts to change her voice.

I mean, like the things that she did in order to get that money is insane, it clearly worked.

But my question is,

would it have worked if you I would say yes,

I would say it would,

and here's why,

because one of the things that makes anti-social personality disorder, sociopaths and psychopaths, one of the things that makes them so dangerous.

is that they can they can distance themselves from emotion and they can look very rationally at the patterns.

So just like you're explaining, she discovered that there was a pattern to changing her speech that would make her more attractive to investors.

You only get that by being able to distance yourself from the emotion.

I mean, just think about any, anybody who works in a nonprofit, when they talk about their nonprofit, they get very excited, right?

They have a very sing-song voice and they show lots of energy that turns investors off because investors are like,

I see you have lots of energy, show me it's going to work.

So she had to distance herself from that and train herself to adopt a different tone of voice.

She had to train herself to adopt a different style.

She had to train.

And that's just what we saw.

That's just what you see in the videos.

Think what she must have had to do when she went to investor meetings or when she

was out in public or when she went to negotiations at the negotiating table.

She had to change everything about herself.

Who can do that?

If they feel like they have to change who they are, they actually just leave.

They leave the job, they go work somewhere else, they change their career, that's not what she did.

She changed herself to make herself more successful.

That is a key behavior in your anti-social personality disorder because they are able to because they lack empathy,

they are able to adopt practical, rational changes that make them more attractive to the lay person.

It's it's a it's a that undermines you and me, and every normal person out there, undermines our own survival instinct.

Because they conform to something that we find attractive.

They conform to someone who is stoic.

We're attracted to someone who is stoic.

They conform to someone who is predictable and precise and consistent.

We are attracted to all of those things.

So it's so, so, so difficult if you don't have the multiple phase gates that we've talked about.

If you don't ask yourself, is this person 1 of 10?

If you don't ask yourself, do I like them too fast?

If you don't give yourself time, distance and change in direction.

If don't, put those bare Then, you're going to just jump right over them because the person that you're talking to is so appealing.

It the very fact that they're so appealing that should make you second-guest them.

So when I think about how,

as I was talking about in the con man,

this woman,

this has become so famous for it because no other female really has done it to that

extreme so that's what made me then ask how much did she actually use

seduction as part of the manipulation tool to get I'm just gonna be honest they were old

white men with a lot of money at least that's what the movie made in the

documentary made out How much of it was her using seduction as a female as part of that strategy,

along with everything else that you said, to land those So what I've read, I don't know whether or she was actively seducing donors.

Yeah, I don't know either.

But what I do know is that she was in a secret relationship with the COO.

So if you think about it,

the number one person that she would have needed to achieve her goals would be an inside threat or an insider.

And an insider inside the executive team is the perfect person to have.

Because what are your investors going to do?

They're going to ask the chief of operations to validate the claims of the chief executive officer.

So, she was having a clandestine affair with the COO, and the COO was the one who was complicit in validating her false information.

Whether she was the one who originated the idea,

or whether or that seduction was a form of manipulation on her part, we don't know for sure, but the elements are there.

Like elements are there to see that somebody was a puppet master,

somebody was the one coming up with the ideas, and somebody was the one following the lead of the puppet master.

What I think is so fascinating is even though we live in a society where it's very natural and common for us to be.

And for us to accommodate women with some sort of assumed innocence,

in this case,

she was so involved and she was so complicit in the illegal activity that people are just,

they're they're not giving her the benefit of the doubt that she was any which speaks to me,

it speaks to the value of information and transparency and the changing nature of some of our base assumptions.

And that's why I wanted to make sure that we spoke about it today because I didn't want

our base assumptions to be going back to what I said earlier, the wolf with the fangs and the jewel, right?

It's no, no, it can actually come in any shape and size and it can be the thing that you don't.

So, yeah, I actually didn't realize that she went in that she was in a secretive relationship

with a COO that makes a lot more sense.

Makes a lot more sense.

And I'm really curious to know which one happened first, right?

I Did she get into the relationship with the COO and that led to her then being able to manipulate?

Fascinating.

It's of the things that I always try to think through.

I'm a man of faith.

I come from a Christian background and People talk about Satan

Lucifer right the the ultimate demon and a lot of times we create in our minds this idea that the villain the demon

is Scary and dark and fangs just like you described the wolf Every account of Satan is that he's beautiful, he's handsome, right?

He's he is attractive in all ways,

which is why he was able to trick Eve,

even as a serpent,

something something as as villainous as we think snakes are,

in the Garden of Good and Evil, before anybody had the knowledge of Good and Evil, a serpent was just neutral.

So, biblically, we have been warned that Satan, the ultimate form of evil, is very attractive.

And then when you look at even the cases we talk about, Elizabeth a very attractive woman.

Have you seen pictures of the Tinder story?

He was a good looking dude.

These are not the people that you would look at and reject.

They are the kind of people that you would look at and be immediately and be attracted to.

They are appealing.

They look normal, they look fit, they look handsome, or pretty, like they are.

The equivalent of what the Bible has always warned us about with Lucifer.

Which to me is so interesting because what CIA trains us to be is called gray men.

We hide in plain sight, we blend in.

One of the keys to us blending in is that we cannot be attractive and we cannot be attractive.

be hideous because both of those extremes would make you memorable.

So if you ever actually get a chance to walk through the halls of CIA,

what you see is a bunch of nondescript, not unattractive, but not attractive people, because you need to be able to blend in.

So unless somebody is into crazy hair and a giant five head and a big Greek nose,

they're not going to think that I'm attractive, right?

I grew up just like you grew up bullied about my looks,

bullied about how thin I was and I wasn't,

you know, I wasn't a handsome white guy in a white state, like that was my upbringing.

So for me to find power in the anonymity.

made me very susceptible to CIA's pitch to come essentially dedicate my life in service to my country.

And it's so contrary to what Hollywood and what movies make us think.

Hollywood and movies make us think that there's power in being beautiful.

There is, but it's manipulative power.

Right?

The real power that you get from life is in doing what you say you will do and being a

person of action and being a person of conviction and being a person that people can rely on because when people can rely on you,

they will let you into their private life and their secret life.

And what we have to remember is that no matter how beautiful a person is,

no matter how non-threatening a person looks, they must show us the same thing.

They thing.

They must They must show show show us us same thing.

consistency, they must show us constant respect, they must show us some sort of continuity to

earn, earn our trust instead of just slipping us into trust because we like them so much.

Yeah, or falling into trust.

Talking about in the power of seduction, how much you guys taught that, how much of sex, are you allowed to talk about?

But if you don't want to explain what sex bienage is and then how the power of seduction in what you do and then just in the real

world of when it comes to a female being manipulated.

Absolutely, so a sex bienage is a term that we use that merges sex and espionage and to really understand what

sex bienage is, you have to understand what espionage is and espionage is the stealing of secrets.

It's illegal everywhere.

It's illegal in corporations.

It's illegal in national security.

It's illegal in the United States.

It's illegal everywhere the reason That intelligence community agencies like CIA or NSA the reason that we can engage in espionage is because there is a

car inside the American legal code that makes it so that if you're carrying out espionage activities,

on behalf of the federal government, in foreign locations, you won't be convicted inside the United States, right?

So that's what makes espionage legal for CIA and NSA and DIA, etc.

Sex is the, or sex Bienage is the place where sex is part of the operational tool in espionage.

So that's where sex Bienage comes from.

Sex Bienage is very very popular in authoritarian countries.

China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, some places like Turkey and Cuba.

These are countries where they leverage sex Bienage.

because the rights of the individual are reduced and the survival of the state is paramount.

Inside the United States the rights of the individual are very very strong.

So in the United States we do not encourage, enforce, or demand our officers engage in any kind of sector.

In fact, we actually train quite the opposite.

We train the opposite because in the Western mindset,

once sex has occurred,

there's a sense of connection,

a sense of intimacy that's ingrained,

that's wired into us by our So once,

whether you're male or female, once that line has been crossed, you feel an intrinsic sense of connection and obligation to your partner in sex.

Even if it's a hookup, you still feel some kind of connection, which is oftentimes what makes people run away from their hookups.

because they feel that connection, it scares them, and they're like, well, to hell with that, I got to get away.

If it was truly just a friend with benefits, truly just an innocent hookup, then it would be very different.

Europe actually has a closer sense of casual sex than anybody in the United States.

So sex-renogen is the act of using sex to get secrets illegally, very, very popular with our adversaries and exceptionally effective against Americans.

Because we, inside the United States, we have one of the most conservative cultures when it comes to sex, even still.

Even with how prevalent porn is and how prevalent dating apps are and casual hookups and we have codes for everything, even with all that.

Like, sex is still something that lives in our secret life, right?

We want to talk to even our closest friends and family.

We don't want to talk about sex.

We don't want to talk about who we had sex with, if it was good, if it was bad, the details, whatever else.

In other parts of the world, like, in Europe, that's not a thing.

Yeah, in Europe.

No one cares, that's just, that's how it is, right?

Latin America is the same way, right?

They these stories about what happens.

Men women alike, because they'll trust their internal groups.

Even in the Middle East, one of the most conservative parts of the world, women will share details with other women.

Men will share details with other men, but men don't talk to right?

So, we have a very unique susceptibility because of our Anglo-Saxon wasp-ways.

where sex is something that is very embarrassing and shameful to us, even in a married relationship.

We don't really talk about sex.

We talk about miscarriages, and talk about not having children, and we talk about whatever the byproducts are of sex.

But it's not like we talk to our girlfriends or boyfriends about the sexual activities we have with our spouse.

So, for that very reason, because there's so much shame and guilt around sex,

foreign adversaries targeting American citizens will leverage sex espionage

because they know that if you can get an American politician

or an American military engineer or an American intelligence officer to engage in a sexual act,

you will almost instantly be pulled into their secret life.

Wow.

And does that thinking about how that transpires in the world, in your CIA law?

I always think about how that can transpire to a regular person that's listening right now

And so thinking through that like the power of sex right then the oxytocin that when you sleep especially women with the

guys I did this whole interview about oxytocin and the difference of like when if you're having a one-night stand for

instance A guy can keep having sex and not activate the oxytocin.

Whereas a woman apparently over time and starts to release.

So even if they were just going to be one night stand, it actually turned into they fell for the guy.

But that's why women fall for guys.

And guys won't fall for the women on one night stand.

And so thinking through that, right, think through the reality of how women perceive sex and men do.

then thinking through how if you,

once you've had the sex,

you then immediately go into that secret line,

I can see how this could be a tool for someone

to really almost give themselves over to someone that they maybe shouldn't or someone they can't trust.

Absolutely, so I mean, you're hitting on so many important points there.

And of the key points that I want to highlight that you're hitting.

is it takes a certain recipe of person to even have a one-night stand.

Not all people will have one-night stands, right?

It takes a certain recipe of person that has to be, if you think about the man who's having sex on the one-night stand.

Chances are he's probably kissing a lot of frogs, trying to find the one-night stand before he actually finds it, right?

So let's talk about the kind of person that is susceptible to that one-night stand.

There are, we're taught at the agency that there are three primary sources of energy in our psyche, right?

Cognitively.

And that through our life, we'll re-prioritize what those energies are, but they're always the same three.

There's creative energy, collective energy, and connection energy.

So I'll use my daughter as an example.

She is at her, I've never seen her so creative.

She draws,

she dances,

she paints,

she face paints, like, and she can go into a corner and spend two hours drawing something and come out of that corner, energized.

Because one of the key elements of these three energy types is that they increase.

increase your energy.

So more time that you are in a creative mode,

when you are in a creative energy primacy, the more energy you have coming out of that mode.

I don't know what you feel like when you come out after drawing.

Yeah, I feel so energized.

You feel super energized in that creative space.

our life when we are energized by collective activity,

which means you're part of a So if you think about people who do social work,

you think about people who are community organizers,

you think about people who are engaged in anything from like the neighborhood watch all the way up to volunteering at their church,

these are people who come out of big events,

they come out of meetings, they come out of church services, energized because they got energy being in a collective environment.

They feel like they were part of something larger than themselves and that energizes them.

Creatives feel like they are creating something new and that energizes them.

The third form is called connected energy.

Connected energy are people who get energy from deep, intimate connections with one or few other people.

We all have all three.

Everybody has some level of connected energy, some level of connected energy, some level of creative energy.

energy, but we also are predominantly driven by one form at any given time in our life.

If you think back to 16 year old Lisa, there's a good chance that she was energized by collective energy because she was feeling rejected.

by the school administrators and the principals and the people that she was bullied by.

So when she was accepted by a larger group, it probably gave you a great deal of energy.

You probably also energized by arts and you were probably also energized by say a close relationship with mom or dad or somebody else.

But you may have predominantly been driven by collective energy.

That's certainly what I was like in middle school.

I think that's what a of people were like in middle school.

As we grow into adults,

especially when we're young professionals,

like 23 to 33, there's an element of collective energy that's fading away as we look for that person we want to connect with.

Who's going to be my partner in crime?

Who's going to be my go-to?

Who's going to be my, you know, Harry and Sally kind of thing, right?

Who's going to be that person that I connect with on a deep insight?

As we get into our sunset years, as we grow into our late 30s, 40s, into 50s, we become very, very...

Yes, sunset years.

That be sunrise years.

Come on now.

Sorry.

It's sunset in terms of work.

Let's say work, right?

But as we get to those peak years, those peak productivity years, years, we are looking for connection.

Most of us,

we shift into this connected energy phase,

where now it's,

I need a partner that's going to grow old with me that I can trust that's going to be there for me when I need someone there.

And that person who will sit on a rocking chair and watch the sunset with me, right?

That's Interestingly,

once we get past those years into our 60s and 70s,

we turn back towards creative endeavors again,

and start painting, and we start listening to music, and we start learning piano, or whatever else it might be.

We start knitting, and we start quilting, whatever else.

But my point with all of that is,

the ripest person for manipulation,

One the person who's in the connected energy phase of their life because that person wants

more than anything to connect with somebody else and that connection energizes them.

So when you think about the one night stand where the woman gets connected to the man and the man doesn't really care.

The man is very likely in the collective phase of his energy cycle,

and the woman is in the connected phase of his energy So,

they're both being energized by the experience, but they're being energized to do two different outcomes.

She feels like she's connected to someone who she can trust, or someone she wants to trust.

He feels like he connected to somebody as part of his collective, and now he's got five girlfriends instead of four.

So, is by that definition then, if you're looking for...

To get on the inside to go from let's say public to private private to secret in a woman's life that they're more likely to

do In their older age because they're looking for that connection.

Correct.

It's and it's not just women.

It's men too There's that that age from about 35 to mid 50s

We're really really hungry for some sort of connection and if we don't find the connection

romantic then we will look for the connection through book clubs or through social clubs.

My grandmother is in her 80s and she belongs to a bridge club, right?

She's looking for connection,

even though my grandfather's passed and she lives alone,

she's still looking for someone she can connect with and just romance is no longer the primary reason that she's looking for that connection.

She spends the majority of her time creating.

dating, right, drawing, making postcards, taking pictures, making scrapbooks, but the thing that energizes her still is connection.

So if you were looking to,

as we talk about connection and the seduction and the sexier notch, if you were looking, your job was to.

you had to get a female from public or to a secret, sorry.

If looking to seduce

or how much of seduction would be a part of that

and then how much of her age then would you look at

and determine how much of that would be useful to you in determining who you choose to then seduce.

connection and seduction are not always the same thing, right?

Seduction usually implies sex.

Connection have to imply sex.

Oftentimes, connection will have an element of sex, but seduction is usually fully sex.

So if I had to,

if I had to penetrate into the secret life of a female who I determine,

connected energy needs, meaning she would be energized by a connected relationship and she currently doesn't have one that energizes her.

That's what you would look for.

That's what I would look for.

Right?

Or if somebody were to task me with targeting a female of say 43.

One of the first Is she in the connected phase of her energy cycle?

Is she in the collective phase of her cycle?

Is she in the creative phase of her energy cycle?

Because to get into that person's secret life, the most important thing is that you have to give them the thing that they want.

And the thing that most everybody wants is They want more hours in the day.

They more time to be awake.

They to be more alert.

They to have someone that's interesting to them, right?

So if you know where they are in their energy cycle,

you can give them exactly the thing they're looking for, which is energy in the day.

That's why we all drink so much caffeine.

So if I found a woman who had connected energy, I know I cannot sleep with her.

I can't be the one she connects with on an intimate level.

Because if I do,

I will be compromising myself inside of my Western mindset and I will be setting her up for a situation where I can never leave.

So that's something we call institutionalization.

If I want her information for more than,

say, six months, I can't be the one sleeping with her and I don't want to sleep with her because I don't want to compromise myself to the rubric of intimacy, but she still needs someone

to sleep with.

So how do I get into her connected secret life without being the one that sleeps with her?

I help her find the person who will sleep with her.

Maybe that means I find the person who Maybe that means I find the boyfriend for her.

Maybe means I sit next to her,

help her,

make sure that she is not picking the wrong person,

or I help her vet the right person, or I'm her person that she calls before and after every date.

There's all sorts of ways to build connection and intimacy without building sex.

And that's one of the things that can be very difficult when a woman is in a manipulative relationship,

because if a woman is in a manipulative relationship and she's looking for the sexual component,

if she's with someone who is truly anti-social personality disorder, oftentimes, they will pull back.

Sex.

They will pull back intimacy.

They will use it as a form of capital to reward or punish and get that person to behave in a certain way.

So sometimes you're beautiful, sometimes you're ugly, sometimes you're pretty, sometimes you're fat.

Sometimes, I'll come on to you, sometimes I'll reject you when you come on to me.

It's a huge lever that exists in manipulative relationships when somebody understands that

you're looking for connection and they use that connection to keep you in line.

Again, we're talking about warning flags, right?

When somebody makes you feel like everything is your fault,

that is a huge warning flag that you are an abusive relationship with one of the ten.

Yeah, one out of ten, right?

If someone is making you,

if they're trying to segregate you or isolate you from friends and family that you've always had,

big sign that you're dealing with one out of ten.

If someone is pulling back intimacy and pulling back love, what you've probably heard is this unconditional love.

When someone puts conditions on a family.

It's a big chance that you're dealing with somebody who is one of the 10 narcissists, sociopath, or psychopath, and they're trying to manipulate you.

The one caution that I want to throw out there, because it can sound overly simple based on what we just said.

I know nobody's sitting here thinking that it's easy,

but I don't want women to think that now all of a sudden they can just do three things and be safe forever, right?

And I definitely don't want women to think that, oh, I'm in a relationship with a guy who doesn't show a lot of emotion.

So he must be a psychopath, so I'm gonna end this relationship right now.

I also wanna validate some of the women out there who are like,

Andy, my man fits all of your descriptions, but I don't think there's anything wrong with him.

There's a lot of misdiagnosis that happens for narcissistic behavior, psychopathic behavior, and sociopathy.

And misdiagnosis is autism.

So if you think about all of your antisocial personality disorders,

and you put them on parallel to that spectrum is the autism spectrum and autism and parents of autistic children are oftentimes worrying or studying.

Is my child a psychopath?

Does child have an antisocial personality disorder or are they autistic?

Wow.

the behaviors can oftentimes appear the same way and it's critical for us in the field as well to

know whether we're dealing with somebody who's on the autism spectrum ASD versus somebody who's on

the narcissistic spectrum right uh NPD so we're always trying to make sure that we isolate and understand who we're dealing with.

That doesn't mean that autistic people look and sound like sociopaths or psychopaths.

They're completely different people.

The reason that the behaviors they have can overlap are for completely different reasons, right?

But the big thing to keep in mind is that when you are dealing with somebody who seems like they are not

or when you're dealing with somebody who has huge changes in the because remember psychopaths seem cold-blooded, sociopaths very volatile.

So if you're dealing with somebody who exhibits either of those behaviors, you might also be dealing with somebody who's on the autistic spectrum.

And what you have to recognize is that if they are autistic, then their primary emotion is frustration.

Interesting.

Because makes it difficult for people to communicate, and it makes it difficult for people to understand what you're trying to communicate with them.

So when they get angry, if they get angry, it's coming from a place of frustration.

They're not calling you stupid, they're not calling you fat.

They're saying, I don't understand.

It seems so simple to you.

It doesn't make sense to me.

That's where they're coming from.

When hear stuff like, you're overreacting and you're taking it the wrong way, or why are you so sensitive, now that's gaslighting.

That's somebody saying there's something wrong.

When you're dealing with someone with autism, they're coming from a place of frustration.

They're not coming from a place of cruelty or victimization or emotional abuse.

When you see those signs, you know you're dealing with somebody that has antisocial personality disorder.

Even though the behaviors might seem the same, the content of what they're arguing with you about is very different.

Now that's for you.

The thing that's commonly misunderstood for narcissistic personality disorder or narcissism is as burgers.

As burgers is currently something that doesn't like clinically exist.

It's a term that's still a holdover from the early 2000s.

But what as burgers means is that somebody doesn't fit in well in society.

It's recognized now as a high-performing version of autism.

If somebody is a high-performing autistic, then they are claimed to have asperger's.

They have empathy.

They can make decisions.

They understand rules and law and order, right?

All the things that don't exist in a psychopath and don't exist in America.

in an Asperger's person, all those things exist.

But they have a difficulty fitting into society.

So they try to do is emulate society.

They're aware of it enough,

and they're aware that it doesn't serve them to what they're trying to get so they can fake it knowing full well what they're doing.

And because they're faking it, And in that faking process, they're always looking to be validated that they're faking it appropriately.

So can come across as narcissists, even though they're not, right?

The thing to understand about a narcissist is that a narcissist will tear you down.

To make them feel good somebody with as birders will not tear you down But they will constantly be seeking validation, right?

Did I do this right?

Why don't you love me?

Why don't you like me?

Like need to be important.

Nobody that work recognizes me You don't recognize me here at home, right?

That signs of somebody who's got as birders They're seeking validation.

They seek that validation at the cause That's something that comes from a narcissist.

So I say this because if you think that 10%

of American adults fall into the realm of antisocial personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder, psychopaths, sociopath and narcissist.

When you add on to that, the whole population that falls under Asperger's and autism, now that 10 turns into 15 percent.

So now you're talking about almost 45 million Americans fall into one of those four categories.

That means one out of every like 17 percent.

are one of those four, are on the spectrum for one of those four.

And it's very important that we don't misunderstand

who we're with because we could throw away

a perfectly good relationship or we could make ourselves vulnerable to an abuse that we don't even see.

Thank you so much for breaking that down.

That's always one thing that I want to make

sure that when I do these types of interviews that we don't start labeling people or misdiagnosing people but it is also like,

how do we take the tools?

How do we take all the tips and tactics that you says that we can get better,

we can improve, we can protect ourselves, we do have.

the control to be able to make decisions with our eyes wider open and that you've

done in space but I never want that to be detriment to other people getting

labeled or misdiagnosed and so understanding those differences I think

is super important and then knowing how to then respond to those differences which you've already broken down beautifully.

I'm glad.

I come from a place where I use these skills for

purposes in a foreign country but to help us here in the United States and it's

the same skill set that I teach to my daughter it's the same skill set that I

teach to my nieces it's the same it's what I've given to every all the females in

my life because I want them to be equipped to under

There are people out there who want your best interests and those people are what we call motivational people, right?

They want you to get what you want because it's in your best interest.

The flip side of motivation though is manipulation and

Manipulation is when people get you to do what they want you to do because it's in their best interest

You have to be able to identify the difference between the two sides of the same coin Otherwise once you are manipulated,

it's very difficult to flip the coin back over So what you really have to do is be aware of the warning signs in advance,

understand that there are certain elements of our society that put you at a disadvantage right away.

Especially if you are a female, especially if you are a high achieving successful female.

Because the things that made you high achieving and successful were that you were forced to follow a rubric of expectations that were set by someone else.

So what you have just built a behavioral process of doing?

Following somebody else's orders.

So, when a manipulator steps in and starts to give you orders because of the rubric that

you're already within, you may not even realize they're manipulating you until it feels like it's too late.

Mm-hmm.

Having met you multiple times before you came on the show and then me reaching out to ask you to come on

You know one of the things you said to me is women in your life is so important to you

And so being here and helping women is you know something that you've really feel passionate about and I really want to thank you for

today I think you've done that in spade and

Like I said being able to have things that we can go back to so we don't feel helpless

powerless is a gift that I wish every woman could give each other and so I don't often have men on this

show But because of the knowledge and the wisdom that you bring to the table to help us women.

I just want to say thank you from the bottom of heart.

No, it is my pleasure.

Thank so much for having me.

How?

Where people find you in everything that you're doing?

Absolutely.

So you can find me at my my business is EverydaySpy.

My homepage is EverydaySpy.com.

I'm also online on all social media platforms at EverydaySpy.

You find my podcast on YouTube at the Every Day Spy Podcast.

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安装 Trancy 扩展，可以解锁更多功能，包括AI字幕、AI单词释义、AI语法分析、AI口语等

兼容主流视频平台

Trancy 不仅提供对 YouTube, Netflix, Udemy, Disney+, TED, edX, Kehan, Coursera 等平台的双语字幕支持，还能实现对普通网页的 AI 划词/划句翻译、全文沉浸翻译等功能，真正的语言学习全能助手。

支持全平台浏览器

Trancy 支持全平台使用，包括iOS Safari浏览器扩展

多种观影模式

支持剧场、阅读、混合等多种观影模式，全方位双语体验

多种练习模式

支持句子精听、口语测评、选择填空、默写等多种练习方式

AI 视频总结

使用 OpenAI 对视频总结，快速视频概要，掌握关键内容

AI 字幕

只需3-5分钟，即可生成 YouTube AI 字幕，精准且快速

AI 单词释义

轻点字幕中的单词，即可查询释义，并有AI释义赋能

AI 语法分析

对句子进行语法分析，快速理解句子含义，掌握难点语法

更多网页功能

Trancy 支持视频双语字幕同时，还可提供网页的单词翻译和全文翻译功能